[Tj3]

One person in another thread was questioning the trinity, so I am starting a new thread here to discuss that topic.

Let's start with this. Who are the three persons mentioned in this passage:

Isa 48:16-17
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

[Criado]

My real problem with trinity is founded by the Biblical Principle written in I Corinthians 4:6 and Revelation 22:18.

One ultimate question is an issue of absolute assurance beyond doubt that there are ONLY three of Them. The issue arise from one of the biblical verse Revelation 4:5 which reads--

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

With that being quoted, how sure we are that neither of those seven are not part of the Godhead?

Just because the bible shows 3 active divine being doesn't necessarily mean there are only three of them. And just because the 7 Spirits were only mentioned several times doesn't really follow that they are not part of the Godhead. As we know, there are things not written in the bible.

[Tj3]

My real problem with trinity is founded by the Biblical Principle written in I Corinthians 4:6 and Revelation 22:18.

And that is exactly why I DO believe in the trinity. I doubt that there is any doctrine spoken of more in the Bible than the nature of God and the truth of the trinity.

One ultimate question is an issue of absolute assurance beyond doubt that there are ONLY three of Them. The issue arise from one of the biblical verse Revelation 4:5 which reads--

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

I addressed that one in our other discussion. There are many spirits of God - the Holy angels are spirits of God because they have submitted themselves to God, but they are not God. If you disagree, then follow 1 Cor 4:6 and show me where that is written.

Scripture is quite clear that there is a difference when it speaks of the Holy Spirit (which is singular and spoken of as God), and these seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels. The Holy Spirit has many attributes that belong solely to God. For example, the Holy Spirit gives eternal life:

Ezek 37:13-14
14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' "
NKJV

The Holy Spirit participated in the act of creation. Only God can create:

Gen 1:1-3
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. To the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
NKJV

Those other spirits are spirits who are obedient to God, but nowhere does scripture give them attributes of being God.

Just because the bible shows 3 active divine being doesn't necessarily mean there are only three of them.

If you claim more, then show me where scripture says that there is another person who is God.

As we know, there are things not written in the bible.

I thought that you said that we should follow 1 Cor 4:6 and Rev 22:18, and now you appear to be saying that we should go by what is NOT written. Yes, there are things which are not written in scripture, but God say to go by what is written which means that He has given us all that we need to know in scripture.

I trust that you know that to claim someone to be God simply because scripture does not explicitly state that they are not is a defined logic fallacy. If you go through scripture from end to end, scripture will rarely state explicitly that individuals are not God, simply because there is only one God, and scripture has stated who God is. It does not need to go through and every time a new individual comes up, and state that they are not God because anyone who scripture does not indicate is God either through specific reference or attributes that only God has, we can say is not God.

By the way, I noted that you did not respond to my question in the original post for this thread. I am interested in your response.

[N0help4u]

The hard time I have following the trinity idea is the way some explained Jesus is God in the other question sounds to me just like the Jesus Only teaching. If somebody could explain the difference to me I think I could understand the trinity better. The only way I can really understand it is like a triune triangle with three points--one triangle --three points.

[Tj3]

The hard time I have following the trinity idea is the way some explained Jesus is God in the other question sounds to me just like the Jesus Only teaching. If somebody could explain the difference to me I think I could understand the trinity better. The only way I can really understand it is like a triune triangle with three points--one triangle --three points.

The concept is difficult for us to comprehend because God is an infinite almighty being outside of time and space. We have no framework to understand such a being because He is so much greater than us, much greater than we are to an insect.

The best analogy that I can think of is to go to scripture and point out that we are made in the image of God. We are also being made of three parts, body, soul and spirit. Each of these are us - they are not someone else, and yet are distinctly different parts of us. Most people know us by seeing our body. And yet, if the body should die, we do not because the Spirit is yet fully us even after we die in our body. No analogy is perfect though because unlike God, our body, soul and spirit cannot act as distinct persons.

The Jesus only concept is false because we find that each person of the trinity has difference roles, and some other differences (i.e. both the Holy Spirit and the Son have been seen, but no one has seen the Father at any time).

[Criado]

And that is exactly why I DO believe in the trinity. I doubt that there is any doctrine spoken of more in the Bible than the nature of God and the truth of the trinity.

I addressed that one in our other discussion. There are many spirits of God - the Holy angels are spirits of God because they have submitted themselves to God, but they are not God. If you disagree, then follow 1 Cor 4:6 and show me where that is written.

Scripture is quite clear that there is a difference when it speaks of the Holy Spirit (which is singular and spoken of as God), and these seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels. The Holy Spirit has many attributes that belong solely to God. For example, the Holy Spirit gives eternal life:

Ezek 37:13-14
14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' "
NKJV

The Holy Spirit participated in the act of creation. Only God can create:

Gen 1:1-3
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. To the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
NKJV

Those other spirits are spirits who are obedient to God, but nowhere does scripture give them attributes of being God.

If that's the case, can you please show me biblical verse that certain angel was called the Spirit of God.

If you claim more, then show me where scripture says that there is another person who is God.

Nor can you prove there are no more.

I thought that you said that we should follow 1 Cor 4:6 and Rev 22:18, and now you appear to be saying that we should go by what is NOT written.

Of course not. As you can see I am not adding something. As you can see I am not labeling God something,He, Himself, did not say. Quoting what you said in the original post-- " Afterall, who knows God's nature better than God?" Then, why call God something He did not call Himself. I am not even calling them as Trinity, Decanity or Nonanity because the bible did not indicate "how many" They are. The issue is about the absolute certainty.

Yes, there are things which are not written in scripture, but God say to go by what is written which means that He has given us all that we need to know in scripture.

That's precisely my point. The bible DID NOT state that they are ONLY 3, then, why jump to the conclusion that they are only 3 just because we can read 3 active divine power?

I trust that you know that to claim someone to be God simply because scripture does not explicitly state that they are not is a defined logic fallacy. If you go through scripture from end to end, scripture will rarely state explicitly that individuals are not God, simply because there is only one God, and scripture has stated who God is. It does not need to go through and every time a new individual comes up, and state that they are not God because anyone who scripture does not indicate is God either through specific reference or attributes that only God has, we can say is not God.

And I agree, and it follows that to claim that They are ONLY Three simply because scripture shows 3 ACTIVE divine powers without the Bible indicating that They are ONLY 3 is a also logic fallacy.

By the way, I noted that you did not respond to my question in the original post for this thread. I am interested in your response.

I just assumed that it will be tackled here that's why I no longer respond to that. Third is already raised here. I think I do not have much issue about the first 2. Though I would like to comment, those are somehow less relevant to how this thread goes at this time.

[Tj3]

If that's the case, can you please show me biblical verse that certain angel was called the Spirit of God.

No angel - where did you get that from?

Nor can you prove there are no more.

I did. Throughout scripture it says one only - the onus is on you to demonstrate from scripture that there are more.

That's precisely my point. The bible DID NOT state that they are ONLY 3, then, why jump to the conclusion that they are only 3 just because we can read 3 active divine power?

Again, we can get into scripture and discuss, but it seems difficult to get you to discuss scripture.

Please answer the original post in this thread.

I just assumed that it will be tackled here that's why I no longer respond to that.

You have avoided it right from the start and so far have refused to respond to the question raised at the start of this thread. Please respond to that question and then let's see where it heads. I offered you the opportunity to start the thread and you wouldn't, so since I started it, I chose to start it with that question. Now please answer the question or tell us that you cannot answer it.

If you are unwilling to discuss the OP, then we might as well get this thread closed.

[sndbay]

Scripture is quite clear that there is a difference when it speaks of the Holy Spirit (which is singular and spoken of as God), and these seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels. The Holy Spirit has many attributes that belong solely to God. For example, the Holy Spirit gives eternal life:

Those other spirits are spirits who are obedient to God, but nowhere does scripture give them attributes of being God.

If you claim more, then show me where scripture says that there is another person who is God.

What I ask is that you look further in choice to this discussion..

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Seven horns are POWER..

An awareness in being a servant of God. Headed by the Holy Spirit that God puts forth as a servant to His Will. Holding a straight line as witness of "The Word that was sealed", "The Word that is God", and "The Word from the beginning".
The plummet mentioned in Zechariah, God's nature to show the straight line, up and down of The Word that the servant witnesses by the Holy Spirit Head to The Word and The Will of God: Watching and Caring For ..

Zechariah 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? For they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

[Tj3]

What I ask is that you look further in choice to this discussion..

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Seven horns are POWER..

An awareness in being a servant of God. Headed by the Holy Spirit that God puts forth as a servant to His Will. Holding a straight line as witness of "The Word that was sealed", "The Word that is God", and "The Word from the beginning".
The plummet mentioned in Zechariah, God's nature to show the straight line, up and down of The Word that the servant witnesses by the Holy Spirit Head to The Word and The Will of God: Watching and Caring For ..

Zechariah 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Zechariah 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

What is your point?

[Tj3]

So far no one has actually reponded to the OP.

Who are the three persons mentioned in this passage:

Isa 48:16-17
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

[sndbay]

What is your point?

As a servant of God to do God's Will, the Holy Spirit offers the seven spirits. The love of Our Father watching, and caring for His children brought to us in Christ through the Holy Spirit to this day and forever.

1. wisdom
2. power
3. riches
4. strength
5. honor
6. glory
7. blessings

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

[cogs]

For the op, I don't know who it is, in the scripture. I don't even know if it's translated correctly, cause it switches gears so fast, whereas the other scripture there flows.

As for the trinity, as they call it, I know that a human can only do miracles through some supernatural power. I believe this to be god's spirit at work in that person. If we are connected to the power source, this power is able to flow through us.
The connectedness is based on god's will. God is the wielder of his power.

Jesus is the accepted sacrifice for our sins, because he is sinless. Jesus did his miracles through god's power. He was in total alignment with god's will, and some would say he is god.

This is where the trinity gets stepped on, because as soon as one says that jesus was doing god's will, some others would say that jesus isn't god. Regardless, god's will is getting done, through the sacrifice of his son, and by the resurrection through the spirit of god.

We are called on to receive god's spirit, and get connected to god's will also. It's about oneness, and one will isn't separated from itself.

[Tj3]

As a servant of God to do God's Will, the Holy Spirit offers the seven spirits. The love of Our Father watching, and caring for His children brought to us in Christ through the Holy Spirit to this day and forever.

1. wisdom
2. power
3. riches
4. strength
5. honor
6. glory
7. blessings

Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

This has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

Please deal with the question that I asked in the OP:

Who are the three persons mentioned in this passage:

Isa 48:16-17
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."

17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
"I am the LORD your God,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

[Tj3]

for the op, I don't know who it is, in the scripture. I don't even know if it's translated correctly, cause it switches gears so fast, whereas the other scripture there flows.

Actually it flows very well, especially if you read it in the context of the surrounding text and chapters.

But I do appreciate your honesty in admitting that you don't know the answer.

as for the trinity, as they call it, I know that a human can only do miracles through some supernatural power. I believe this to be god's spirit at work in that person. If we are connected to the power source, this power is able to flow through us.
The connectedness is based on god's will. God is the wielder of his power.

We know that jesus is God, and that this was accepted without controversy amongst 1st century Christians:

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
NKJV

jesus is the accepted sacrifice for our sins, because he is sinless.

Which again proves that He is not just man, because all men have sinned:

Rom 3:23-24
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV

Only God is without sin.

Jesus did his miracles through god's power. He was in total alignment with god's will, and some would say he is god.

And the scriptures would agree.

This is where the trinity gets stepped on, because as soon as one says that jesus was doing god's will, some others would say that jesus isn't god.

Jesus is God an always was God (Micah 5:2). He came to earth manifest in the flesh as a man, humbling Himself to submit Himself to the father as a man:

Phil 2:8-9
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
NKJV

Because only a perfect man could be the sacrifice on the cross for our sins. Therefore while on earth, He became our example by perfectly submitting Himself to the Father as we should.

regardless, god's will is getting done, through the sacrifice of his son, and by the resurrection through the spirit of god.

Yes.

[Criado]

No angel - where did you get that from?

You said "seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels". Can you give a passage saying these Seven Spirits of God is no different that angels?

I did. Throughout scripture it says one only - the onus is on you to demonstrate from scripture that there are more.

Now you're misleading. We're talking about persons here and not Godhood, right? There's no issue with them being one. Actually, the burden of proof is not mine because you're claiming They are Trinity. You only have to prove that there are ONLY three and the Seven Spirit of God are not part of God.

Again, we can get into scripture and discuss, but it seems difficult to get you to discuss scripture.

Please answer the original post in this thread.

You have avoided it right from the start and so far have refused to respond to the question raised at the start of this thread. Please respond to that question and then let's see where it heads. I offered you the opportunity to start the thread and you wouldn't, so since I started it, I chose to start it with that question. Now please answer the question or tell us that you cannot answer it.

If you are unwilling to discuss the OP, then we might as well get this thread closed

Now, that's unfair. I am not avoiding you question. I just thought you refer to your original question in previous thread. If you'll read the context of answer (which you cut off), you'll notice that I am referring to your original post in the previous thread.

Now, that I already see the question you wish me to answer, here's my answer:
There's God; and His Spirit (who sent) and the Redeemer (who is also God, who was sent)

[cogs]

...Actually it flows very well, especially if you read it in the context of the surrounding text and chapters.
But I do appreciate your honesty in admitting that you don't know the answer...

I did read it in the surrounding chapters, trying to understand its logic. I found the way it was translated as illogical. If I had the answer, I really could read it in context, and see how it's correct.

[Tj3]

You said "seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels". Can you give a passage saying these Seven Spirits of God is no different that angels?

That is silly. First, I did not say that they were angels. You are claiming them to be God. The onus is on you to provide evidence that they are in fact God. Remember, you referenced the verse that says not to go beyond what is written. So let's see your validation for claiming the spirits to be God.

Now you're misleading. We're talking about persons here and not Godhood, right?

You said that Jesus and the Father were two different Gods. So maybe it is up to you to make yourself clear. Are you talking about multiple gods, or are you accepting the fact that the father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons, but one God.

There's no issue with them being one. Actually, the burden of proof is not mine because you're claiming They are Trinity. You only have to prove that there are ONLY three and the Seven Spirit of God are not part of God.

See, you are going around in circles. This discussion started because you said that the father and the Son were both God, but not the same God. Are you now backing off on that? If so let's move forward and deal with what scripture says about God.

Now, that I already see the question you wish me to answer, here's my answer:
There's God; and His Spirit (who sent) and the Redeemer (who is also God, who was sent)

God - now have you looked at the original languages? They are all YHWH. One and the same God.

[Tj3]

i did read it in the surrounding chapters, trying to understand its logic. i found the way it was translated as illogical. if i had the answer, i really could read it in context, and see how it's correct.

If you wish to engage in a discussion, you have to do more than just say so. You have to actually discuss what the text says, and explain your position.

[cogs]

If you wish to engage in a discussion, you have to do more than just say so. You have to actually discuss what the text says, and explain your position.

Lol explain my position? What is yours already? You seem to know the answer already to your post, yet you are delaying in giving it.

[Criado]

Originally Posted by Criado:
There's God; and His Spirit (who sent) and the Redeemer (who is also God, who was sent)

Erratum: There's God; and His Spirit (who sent) and the one being sent (who from the time that it was, there He is). Based on the context, the one sent is not the redeemer. Sorry. My mistake.

That is silly. First, I did not say that they were angels. You are claiming them to be God. The onus is on you to provide evidence that they are in fact God. Remember, you referenced the verse that says not to go beyond what is written. So let's see your validation for claiming the spirits to be God.

It's settled, then. I have the burden of proof to provide evidence that they are part of God. AND you have the burden of proof that They are not. Of course, this will may be resolve as we go further. HOWEVER, it seemed that you're evading to provide proof for your previous statement "seven spirits which are spoken of no differently than angels".

You said that Jesus and the Father were two different Gods. So maybe it is up to you to make yourself clear. Are you talking about multiple gods, or are you accepting the fact that the father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons, but one God.

You're really misleading. Let me refresh you how these specific "sub-topic" started

You said:If you claim more, then show me where scripture says that there is another person who is God.

I said: Nor can you prove there are no more.

You said: I did. Throughout scripture it says one only - the onus is on you to demonstrate from scripture that there are more.

Now, am I not dealing with person from the start?

See, you are going around in circles. This discussion started because you said that the father and the Son were both God, but not the same God. Are you now backing off on that? If so let's move forward and deal with what scripture says about God.

What make you think I am backing off that. But I wonder why it is now brought here considering that it very evident that I am focusing THIS discussion to "numbers" even from the very beginning rather than the Godhood.

The trinity has 2 major principle:
1. God has ONLY 3 persons
2. They are the same God

If proven that either,
1. There is less than or greater than three person
2. They are not the same God

Then, the concept will crumble.

I prefer the first because it is less complex to discuss.

God - now have you looked at the original languages? They are all YHWH. One and the same God.

Here's what it says:

Isa 48:16-17
16 Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord YHWH and His RUACH
Have sent Me.

17 Thus says the YHWH, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
I am the YHWH your ELOHIM,
Who teaches you to profit,
Who leads you by the way you should go.
NKJV

I can't see "One and the same God" concept here (of course, I am NOT looking for verbatim). Can you please show it to me?