[aqua@home]

I know what I believe forgiveness to be, but what do you believe it is?

How do you forgive and is it possible to forget?

If you have any answer or input to any of these questions, I would really appreciate it.:)

[JoeCanada76]

For me personally. Well I had an argument or discussion with my mother in law. For me you can always find forgiveness, although I admit it is not always easy, but I can not forget. My mother in law says if you do not forget you can't forgive.. Ya, but the thing is you can always forgive but what happens when a person continues to do the same thing over and over and over again. If you forgive and forget it will continue to happen and repeat itself, but if you forgive and remember you will be able to prevent getting hurt over and over again at the same time forgive the person for their behaviour.

Does that sound mixed up? What are your personally thoughts on this?

Joe

[J_9]

Aqua, I believe that forgiveness is when you forgive someone for their actions, but I personally do not believe it is possible to forget.

At one time in my life I was beaten by someone close to me. I forgave his actions in that I do not ever bring that incident up even in a heated argument, but I will never forget what happened.

It was hard for me to forgive and took a long time, but time heals all wounds.

However, I believe that certain circumstances call for different measures.

[J_9]

I could not comment for you Jesushelper, so here I will say, yes same wavelength. You have to remember to learn from mistakes.

[valinors_sorrow]

Because of some life-threatening experiences, I have come to realise that forgiveness is about helping me, so I have cultivated the ability to forgive no matter what. I am sincere in this. Anything.

It is possible to forgive without receiving an apology (or refusing one that is not acceptable - more on that in a moment). I'll admit on some deeply painful events I have taken longer to forgive, but I eventually get there. It is a release and a welcome one too when it comes.

However with that said, forgiveness doesn't in any way imply that I will trust again or risk vulnerability. That is an entirely separate matter that often gets mixed up with forgiveness. I rebuild the broken trust when a number of conditions are met. Seeking my forgiveness and/or offering an apology is just a good start in that process. I want to see sincere change, if I am to trust again. So this notion of apologizing just to make me gloss over my feelings into some kind of pseudo-forgiveness when nothing else has really changed hits me as not a real apology, and I don't accept it. To do so would make me as phoney or false as them.

That probably begs the question how do you forgive someone who's apology you haven't accepted or will never receive? All I can say is the forgiveness lets go of my end of the resentment/hurt and the apology, if done correctly, releases them of the guilt and hopefully of the wrong behavior too while allowing me to regain some of the lost trust.

Those who I have forgiven but remain distrustful about are simply sick people who don't understand what they are doing. Like M. Scott Peck in People Of The Lie, I don't have "bad" in my vocabulary so sick (as in not spiritually well) is as close as it gets. Whenever I am around them, I am careful but not ever hostile... no need for hostile, really, since the forgiveness flushes that out.

To forget completely (like it totally slipped my mind) is possible only when the trust is rebuilt completely or the error was so slight to begin with. Otherwise its not meant to be forgotten. It is one of many lessons I am meant to learn.

This is one of my favourite topics (in case you can't tell and I hope that wasn't too many thoughts! :D ) and a good question, Aqua - thanks!

[31pumpkin]

The answer, for me, anyhoo is that it depends who you are referring to. If you are trying to forgive and forget with a living relative or friend, then I think you can be happy with just forgiving them (unless they perpetuate their wrongdoing) I don't think you can forget as long as you are neurologically intact.
If now the person is deceased and you need to forgive and forget due to some type of traumatization; then I think that maybe you didn't need to forgive at all, but you forgot most of the feeling anyway, so you mostly forgot it anyway. But it still would be wise to forgive them for your own peace of mind.

:confused:

[talaniman]

The answer, for me, anyhoo is that it depends who you are referring to. If you are trying to forgive and forget with a living relative or friend, then I think you can be happy with just forgiving them (unless they perpetuate their wrongdoing) I don't think you can forget as long as you are neurologically intact.
If now the person is deceased and you need to forgive and forget due to some type of traumatization; then I think that maybe you didn't need to forgive at all, but you forgot most of the feeling anyway, so you mostly forgot it anyway. But it still would be wise to forgive them for your own peace of mind.

:confused:

I agree that forgiving helps me to heal and move on ,but forgeting is a whole new ballgame as I'll never forget anything and will learn from that experience for future reference!:cool:

[orange]

I'm not sure if I've forgiven my biological father or not (he committed suicide in front of me). I guess if I'm not sure then I probably haven't. But yes I agree with what everyone has said, it's important to forgive for your own mental health and peace of mind, not for the sake of the person who wronged you. And forgetting is definitely NOT possible for me, unless I had a lobotomy or something!!

I forgave my biological mother a while back, but it took me a couple of years to do so. It was more of a process than an actual "act". I guess my only advice to anyone is, don't feel forced to forgive, be open to it and when you are ready it will happen.

[orange]

31pumpkin agrees: Hard one to accept but I personally think that for anyone to kill themselves in the 1st place, they have to be at least temporarily insane. Understanding may be all that you need for a long time. I've been there unfortunately.

Yup I totally agree with you, he was not well at the time. Still, it was very hard to take, he also killed his girlfriend at the same time and turned the gun on me too, although I am all right obviously.

I hope at some point to forgive him, but even knowing that he was ill doesn't much help the anger I feel. I guess part of that comes from the fact that my biological mother was also mentally ill and she didn't kill herself. You can't compare 2 people obviously but it's hard not to. Anyway I was in a suicide survivor's support group for a while, didn't get much out of it, but I may try again at some point.

Sorry to hear that you have had a similar experience. It's one of the worst things you can experience IMO.

[31pumpkin]

ORANGE:
Interesting that you mention one thing ,anger. I couldn't ever say I had any anger after my father killed my mother & turned the rifle on himself when I was 18. So I think it was because the rest of my memories were completely opposite & positive. So I guess it has to do with your relationship to begin with. If it was something like abuse, then I can understand even hatred.

I hope I didn't freak you out,

God, smoke, & rock & roll. Ain't this life something else?

[orange]

No you didn't freak me out... your experience is very similar to mine!

Yeah I never had a good experience with my biological father... he was always an a** and his murder/suicide was the crowning glory of that legacy. There are things I am more angry about with him even than his suicide, so yeah you're right again, it could be because I don't have many (or any!) positive memories of him.

[aqua@home]

Thank you all for your answers so far. I do hope that I too will be able to forgive the wrong doings in my life. I have a hard time with trying not to think about the actions when faced with the people. Some of the things that happen truly change who you are and affect the person you are. I too don't think forgetting is always possible.

I try to teach my children that an apology also means that you are going to try your best not to do that same wrong again. I would like to know how many chances you have to give people and how many you can expect. I would think that it would have to do with the wrong.

I hope some of this made sense. :confused:

[31pumpkin]

ORANGE:

I am no psychiatrist, so I can only imagine where that anger goes - where there was no love to fall back on. I saw the book "look back in anger" and I knew I wouldn't care to read it. Wow, I think I would be satisfied with that person burning in hell. But that's just my thoughts.

Now, we look at a new reality. For one, I'm glad God found me in time.Better late than too late! That all has turned from darkness to light. That with each generation we are responsible for,we can take the middle road in teaching them that peace is the answer. And what a generation mine was for peace! :) :)

I think my daughters take after me. If someone's done them wrong and if they feel they are truly right to expect an apology... then they are quite assertive to get one.

Occasionally I ponder if someone will forgive ME. But it fades. I think exactly what my mother said to me once... " I did the best I knew how" So if I forgave HER then that's all there must be. With an added feature to her sentence... "then God shows up!"


I blame myself if anyone robs my peace of mind. Forgetting helped me find a new reality. Some friends I met after D-Day never knew the truth about me. But I couldn't have picked up on their happy vibe if I didn't tell white lies. It worked for me. True, I don't forget the happening, and revisit it from time to time and take rx for insomnia. So I guess the shrink is in agreement with me because they probably just feel sorry for me and give me the script. It's all about having a sound mind. Just have to cope with it.


I'm taking it light. At least I know I'm free! :rolleyes:

[Starman]

I know what I believe forgiveness to be, but what do you believe it is?

How do you forgive and is it possible to forget?

If you have any answer or input to any of these questions, I would really appreciate it.:)

Forgiveness doesn't require forgetting only an effort to keep such things out of our minds. It involves the casting aside of anger and feelings of revenge and accepting the honest contriteness of the person or persons involved. This forgiveness can also be based on the ignorance or mental incapacities or misunderstandings of the perpetrators of any injustice we suffer.

Luke 23:34
And Jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do...


BTW

Everyone doesn't deserve to be forgiven for things they do. Some persons vehemently remain unrepentant though they are well-informed and very aware of all issues involved and don't want to be forgiven. Forgiving the purposefully-wicked can actually be a sin. God doesn't.

Jeremiah 30:23
Behold, the tempest of Jehovah, even his wrath, is gone forth, a sweeping tempest: it shall burst upon the head of the wicked. KJV


But as for taking action, we have a legal system which regulates that for the sake of societal order..

[aqua@home]

Thanks starman. I will have to look into the comment about forgiving the purposefully-wicked. That is so interesting.

Luke 23:34 "And jesus said, Father, forgive them; for they know not whata they do..."

I thought something was only a sin if you knew what you it was wrong. So you wouldn't need forgiveness if you hurt someone unknowingly but they might still need to forgive you if they are aware of it? Again making forgiveness for the benefit of the one doing the forgiving.

[valinors_sorrow]

Forgiving the purposefully-wicked can actually be a sin. God doesn't.

Jeremiah 30:23
Behold, the tempest of Jehovah, even his wrath, is gone forth, a sweeping tempest: it shall burst upon the head of the wicked. KJV

This is a big leap so don't all jump on me at once, okay? :o

Unless I am showing general ignorance in religious matter, I don't exactly see here the instructions that says God doesn't forgive, let alone instructions that are meant for us humans... unless our name is Jehovah also? The quote only makes it clear that God exacts some kind of punishment (wrath) but makes no mention of forgiveness or lack of.

Starman, where is it written that if we forgive it is a sin please?

[JoeCanada76]

I would like to know as well. As far as I know it does not say anywhere once in the old testament or new testament that if we forgive it is a sin!

Joe

[valinors_sorrow]

See, it is a very curious question, this one about forgiveness.

Without going into any detail I too have been hurt by others to be point of almost not surviving. Although this screwed me up for a long time, I loved people who are way too sick to trust, and I have forgiven people who repeat the mistakes seemingly knowing its wrong, knowing there are grave consequences. I am much better now having had a lot of help from professionals. With their help however, I came to a well thought out conclusion that I still love them, as unbelievable as that may seem.

Having had a front row seat to what I consider some of the sickest behavior out there, I am not able to report to you if it's a case of they couldn't or wouldn't. I really don't know. Its hard for me to imagine Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dalmer chose that. So I leave that sort of judgement up to God, or the creator or whoever it is we face when we leave here.

I am comfortable with M. Scott Peck's definition of evil as just the ultimate sickness. It makes really big sense to me to see it that way, it fits my empirical data like two piece of puzzle. So how would I treat a sick friend? Especially one capable of great destructive behaviors? Carefully, no doubt. But by the same token I wouldn't protect them from worldly consequences - that's not my job either. If I pray for them, it could possible be a lot like what the rabbi offered in Fiddler On The Roof: "God bless and keep the czar... far away from us!" LOL

But that wouldn't stop me from seeking forgiveness since the forgiveness is for me, not them. And should God need to meter out something more than that, well that seems like God's business to me. I have enough trouble just sorting out mine for the most part! LOL

PS - Chava, Orange or Aqua: If you ever want any help working on any forgiveness in a more personal sense, I am humbly offering for what its worth...

[Starman]

This is a big leap so don't all jump on me at once, okay?? :o

Unless I am showing general ignorance in religious matter, I don't exactly see here the instructions that says God doesn't forgive, let alone instructions that are meant for us humans ...unless our name is Jehovah also? The quote only makes it clear that God exacts some kind of punishment (wrath) but makes no mention of forgiveness or lack of.

Starman, where is it written that if we forgive it is a sin please?

But God does forgive:

Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? Saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?

Psalm 86:5
For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive, And abundant in lovingkindness unto all them that call upon thee.

Matthew 6:14
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.


The scripture speaks of those who receive God's wrath. The reason we can conclude that involves no forgiveness is because God's wrath results in eternal destruction from which there is no resurrection.

Psalm 37:37-39
When the wicked spring as the grass, And when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; It is that they shall be destroyed for ever.

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience.


BTW

To forgive becomes a sin if we forgive those that God doesn't want us to forgive because he himself doesn't forgive them. Here is an example:

Deuteronomy 7:16
And thou shalt consume all the peoples that Jehovah thy God shall deliver unto thee; thine eye shall not pity them...


http://www.sigler.org/mckay/etpunish.htm

The Attitude of the Godly Towards God's Enemies
http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyKz...ods_Enemi.html

[JoeCanada76]

It is all in interpretation, but remember Jesus. What did he ask, when he was being murdered up on the cross.

Joe