[Starman]

I would like to know as well. As far as I know it does not say anywhere once in the old testament or new testament that if we forgive it is a sin!

Joe

I wasn't using the scripture in that unscriptural way. Actually, there is nothing in that scripture which makes it amenable to being used in support of that idea. If indeed there is-pray tell. : )

[Krs]

Aqua, I believe that forgiveness is when you forgive someone for their actions, but I personally do not believe it is possible to forget.

At one time in my life I was beaten by someone close to me. I forgave his actions in that I do not ever bring that incident up even in a heated argument, but I will never forget what happened.

It was hard for me to forgive and took a long time, but time heals all wounds.

However, I believe that certain circumstances call for different measures.

I agree.
Its difficult or forgive and forget, but forgiveness comes in time, once you slowly heal your pain, but forgetting is slightly harder.

[fredg]

Hi,
Great answers.
I can only echo some of them.
Forgiveness is part of being a Christian; but forgetting about it is a different story! "I forgive you" means forgetting about oneself, and helping another.
But, again, we don't want to "shut the door" completely on the past, but we want to do so, to the extent that the past doesn't bother us anymore. As another suggested, we learn from our mistakes. Forgetting about the past means we would not remember those mistakes; hence can't act "in the now" to better ourselves.
Some do not have the capacity for forgiveness, and in my opinion, it's because of Ego and Pride. The old saying that "Pride goeth before the fall" is so true. It is only with humility, practicing being humble, that one finds it within oneself to forgive someone for past actions.
But, remembering those actions can help in the future, not following "prey" to the same things again!

[31pumpkin]

I agree with forgiveness comes with being a Christian. However, I also believe that forgiveness can come with time passing.

With that I mean if a persons actions or words have been opposite to the philosophy of "do onto others as you would have them do unto you" Well, then that person certainly would have to SHOW me some change in the actions/attitude to make amends. If they want to be friendly or even loving, they must improve or their out!

I wouldn't even consider being burdened by having to forgive someone if they were very obviously the wrong ones. I'd pretty much forget about them and their limited intelligence until they come into the picture again, and then see if they've changed. I'm at peace with that.

It works both ways. I expect the same from myself.

[valinors_sorrow]

To forgive becomes a sin if we forgive those that God doesn't want us to forgive because he himself doesn't forgive them. Here is an example:

Deuteronomy 7:16
And thou shalt consume all the peoples that Jehovah thy God shall deliver unto thee; thine eye shall not pity them....


http://www.sigler.org/mckay/etpunish.htm

The Attitude of the Godly Towards God's Enemies
http://av.rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9ibyKz...ods_Enemi.html

Thank you Starman for the answer you provided here.
Although I couldn't see unforgiveness in the word "consume" in your scriptural quote, and I saw only a little more in that first site you linked, I did see it laid out plainly in the last site. You were right about how God is portrayed as not forgiving in some circumstances.

It was interesting (not that I agree with Christianity, mind you and all of my statements about forgiveness have been from a non-religious or generally spiritual only place) but I am more educated about it now - thank you. :)

[aqua@home]

I wouldn't even consider being burdened by having to forgive someone if they were very obviously the wrong ones.
It works both ways. I expect the same from myself.

I think that forgiveness is important for the person doing the forgiving. I agree that forgiveness can come with time but I think that you should forgive those that are obviously wrong. Isn't who is wrong obvious most of the time?:rolleyes:

[aqua@home]

I don't think there is a circumstance when you shouldn't forgive. I thought God commanded us to forgive others as He forgives us?

[Starman]

Thank you Starman for the answer you provided here.
Although I couldn't see unforgiveness in the word "consume" in your scriptural quote, and I saw only a little more in that first site you linked, I did see it laid out plainly in the last site. You were right about how God is portrayed as not forgiving in some circumstances.

It was interesting (not that I agree with Christianity, mind you and all of my statements about forgiveness have been from a non-religious or generally spiritual only place) but I am more educated about it now - thank you. :)

Glad you benefited from the info valinors_sorrow.

About the word "consume," the KJV can be a bit difficult to understand at times due to the use of archaic English expressions. But I use because it is public domain. The word consume, is translated in other Bible versions as "destroy". Feeling no pity meant that they were to show the same unforgiving attitude that God was displaying toward those people at that time. The reason for this is explained at the following site

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/genocide.html

[valinors_sorrow]

Feeling no pity meant that they were to show the same unforgiving attitude that God was displaying toward those people at that time.

I again thank you for further clarity. You know though, that I am not entirely in keeping with Christianity. This very topic has been one of my major sticking points with certain faiths. A religion that pits humankind against humankind is just not possible from the creator who created me. With all due respect to those of great faith here, I think some parts of religions may have been written more by erroring humans than any Divinity.

And that is just my little ol' opinion and nothing to get worked up about too. :o

But that doesn't mean I am not open to looking at how religions sanction such actions explicitly. In case I need to debate my current position more carefully. Or in case I am wrong too. :eek: My understanding of such matters are an ever-evolving thing. Sometimes daily too LOL.

But you see now why I am free to be the supporter of total forgiveness for anything anyone can possibly do. It is one of the main tenants of my overall spirituality. It goes the very idea that all actions we take come from one of two places: love or fear. Everything else is just a variation on those two.

My empirical data says I make better spiritual decisions out of love, not fear. Not that fear isn't appropriate at times or isn't supposed to be there, just that it really gets in the way sometimes. My personal journey has been to evolve so that I, one by one, trade in my fear-based reactions for love-based one. It's been interesting,

In that sense then, forgiveness = love and nonforgiveness = fear. As a fair counterpoint to some of views expressed here, I would like to "testify" that I think I have forgiven some of the worst from people and I have only experienced positives things from it, one of which is a more heightened sense of connection spiritually. To my creator, to myself and to all of you.

I thought you might enjoy seeing some of what is behind my comments about forgiveness, at least I hope you did. :p

[aqua@home]

...I am free to be the supporter of total forgiveness for anything anyone can possibly do. :p

I agree with this completely. I know some things would definitely be more difficult for me to forgive and as "pumpkin" said, sometimes forgiveness comes with time.

[Starman]

As Valinor's Sorrow pointed out, such an opinion requires that we reject parts of the Bible we choose to disagree with. Those of us who accept the whole Bible as God's word are not free to pick add delete or otherwise blatantly msinterpret for or own convenience.

Of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But I feel that Valinor at least admits that he isn't relying on the Bible as his final authority. In contrast, to do as Valinor does and to say that one depends on the Bible as his final authority is irrational and some might even dare to call it hypocritical.

BTW

I also find it self-contradictory that some who are in favor of unconditional forgiveness for everyone regardless of the offense are the very ones who would protest if all the unrepentant child molestors, rapists, ax murderers, habitual thieves, and so on were unconditionally forgiven and suddenly released on society because they are forgiven. After all, forgiveness does not imprison, It forgets and starts anew doesn't it?

But of course here we probably will draw the line won't we?

It's when we are told by the Bible that God draws the line that irks us.

But the truth of the matter is that some people don't deserve to be forgiven, and never will deserve to be forgiven because they prefer sin. This is a very basic Christian biblical doctrine and ignorance of it only shows that we need to become more conversant with the Bible.


Philippians 3:18-20 (New King James Version)

18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.

[31pumpkin]

I don't think there is a circumstance when you shouldn't forgive. I thought God commanded us to forgive others as He forgives us?

Sometimes I think it's up to God to forgive certain injustices. What happens when (God forbid) your brother gets murdered and his case goes in the cold file.
Do you think you would feel sorry for people then? For evil people? Need to forgive them? WHEN they get the lethal dose, and the family's there THAT'S when they will probably forgive them.


I'm thankful I don't have anyone to forgive at this time.

Later...
The Gator. :D

[aqua@home]

I'm not saying that people don't deserve to be punished but from a personal point of view I don't think you can hold on to the pain, etc and truly begin to heal if you don't forgive. I think you can start to heal, but to be healed, I believe forgiveness may play a part. I don't think you can forgive when someone else wants you to, but you do it on your own time.

I believe that you must answer for what you have done on earth and in the afterlife. We all make choices and we have to live with the consequences. When we have to answer to God for them, He will decide whether He forgives us. This takes me to the multiple degrees of heaven that I believe in which is another topic.

I guess I believe that it is healthy for our spirit to forgive the deserving. If someone is going to continue to hurt you, you are right, they don't deserve your forgiveness. I think though if through our healing we come to the point we can forgive then we should.

If I were to continue to hurt someone I would not be worthy of forgiveness until my actions had changed and I was sincere in my heart.

Starman, I will have to read a little more into your link.

[valinors_sorrow]

I also find it self-contradictory that some who are in favor of unconditional forgiveness for everyone regardless of the offense are the very ones who would protest if all the unrepentant child molestors, rapists, ax murderers, habitual thieves, and so on were unconditionally forgiven and suddenly released on society because they are forgiven. After all, forgiveness does not imprison, It forgets and starts anew doesn't it?

No, it doesn't, at least not the version I am claiming to practice. I hope I can explain this since I am quite unaccustomed to talking in detail to others about this. :o

This is why I was so careful to separate forgiveness from trust in my first post here. I have found a kind of forgiveness that releases me while having nothing at all to do with the other end.

By being separate like that, it is possible to forgive those that you claim don't "deserve" it. Here is how I do it: the action may be wrong, but I am not sure the person is. I am very much of the camp "hate the sin but love the sinner". I view it as they are making a terrible mistake. A mistake they don't know they are making or so far refuse to acknowlege. A mistake they are willing to make again and again, even. But none the less, a mistake. I do know what mistakes are like.

They are sick and seem trapped in a sickness I confess I don't fully understand even with the incredible front row seat I have had. There are a great number of books written about this and the best one, I think, is People of the Lie, by M. Scott Peck, a very religious man in his own right.

Most importantly I don't know what happens when they meet with God. Maybe they repent in a flash of understanding and remorse so huge it would shock me. Maybe not. I do know what repenting and remorse are like. But I clearly won't be privy to that. So I don't know what is truly in their hearts and in not knowing, I realised I needed to default to the side of forgiveness, just in case. I stay out of the judgement of "deserve" or not as it pertains to the whole person. Not my job!

But that doesn't stop me from having thoughts about whether an action is wrong or not, not in the slightest. In fact, I have lots of opinions about which actions may be right or wrong (as you have probably noticed LOL) :D Nor does it stop me from deciding if someone is trustworthy or not either, by the evidence of those actions. That is my job! To take care of me and not be exposed to harm.

So please don't count me among those who would let slide anything destructive or sanction releasing dangerous people. I am 100% for personal accountiblity for every single thing each of us does. I would have consequences match the crime but it would really be more like conditions matching the sickness. And that would call for prison too.

It may seem odd that forgiveness is needed for someone who actions were so wrong it sent them to prison, but I would ask you this, if not for them, then for who? The one who forgives. Anything less and I think you are attempting to play God.

PS - I have compiled these ideas from a great many books, some of which are religious texts. Sorry this is so long but its hard to explain shortened. :o

Now you can see why I was so interested in some of your ideas, Starman - it is a great discussion that I hope you are enjoying as much as I am.

[31pumpkin]

VS -

When I read that I think of an example. I think of a person in a family who is a heroin addict. You love them dearly but they rob from you and you have to forgive them because they are so far gone. They only think about their next high, and you have to watch them destroy their life. Does that qualify for the type of forgiveness you are talking about?

[31pumpkin]

That's fine. I think. Oh well, blonde moment :)

[valinors_sorrow]

VS-When I read that I think of an example. I think of a person in a family who is a heroin addict. You love them dearly but they rob from you and you have to forgive them b/c they are so far gone. They only think about their next high, and you have to watch them destroy their life. Does that qualify for the type of forgiveness you are talking about?

Thank you for the permission Pumpkin...

Of course you love them, but you don't forgive them because they are "so far gone". You forgive them because they are making a mistake, they are caught in a sickness called addiction and you need the release. And you don't know how it will turn out. But in the meantime, yes all they think about is their next fix. It is what addicts do... until they hit bottom and seek help. I know about this because I work in the recovery profession. That is the profession for which I traded in my graphic design career a decade ago.

Now, speaking of "so far gone" I would like you to know that I believe as long as they are alive, there is hope it will turn out differently. But again meanwhile you need to protect yourself against them since an active addict is capable of great harm. Sounds like you know that part already so I am relieved you do. It is tough loving someone you can't trust, I know. :(

You do not have to "watch" either, especially if its in any way pulling you down to some unsafe place emotionally. You can turn them over to the care of God and keep a spiritually safe distance, for your sake. And talk about the pain with friends who understand. If you think you don't have any friends like that specifically, well then know that I am one here and there are undoubtedly others too! More would be found at your local Al-Anon, if your area has that. I hope this helps. (hug)

I am really glad you shared that and you are not alone :)

[Starman]

No, it doesn't, at least not the version I am claiming to practice. I hope I can explain this since I am quite unaccustomed to talking in detail to others about this. :o

This is why I was so careful to separate forgiveness from trust in my first post here. I have found a kind of forgiveness that releases me while having nothing at all to do with the other end.

By being separate like that, it is possible to forgive those that you claim don't "deserve" it.

I only said that God doesn't always forgive and am being understood as saying that we should not forgive and that we should set ourselves up as judges. Well, I agree with you that only God determines our destiny because he alone can read the heart. So the scripture I cited was meant only to support the fact that God doesn't always forgive. The other conclusions are just based on a misunderstanding of what my purpose was.


BTW
Armageddon proves that God doesn't always forgive.

[aqua@home]

I agree with Valinors in that even when we forgive it may be essential for us to "protect" ourselves.

I'd like to add to what VS and pumpkin were saying. I think you must know something is a sin for you to be held accountable. There are many examples of parents passing on their perverted thoughts of racism and prejudices. Humans for the most part only know what they are taught. Most of the rest is pure instinct. If one does not know whether by ignorance, mental inabilities, addictions, etc then I'm not sure they will be held accountable. This is why I believe God will be the judge. Only He knows for sure anyone's knowledge and mental state. Only He can judge.

I don't think that by us forgiving we are being judges. I think judging means deciding guilt and punishment. I believe for the most part we can tell if we have been wrong or done wrong. We do not get to hand out the punishments personally. Maybe it does fall to a group of peers and maybe that is wrong, but so is chaos which would occur if we did nothing to keep criminals at bay.

Then there is the destruction of the people because of the flood. Were they not warned? Are we not warned about Armageddon? We have to take responsibility. We are not perfect, but good people, and good people do get hurt.

[aqua@home]

Sorry, I think I veered a little off course in that last post.