[inthebox]

The hobo down the street is REAL change too but no one wants him to lead the country.

Yeah and that HOBO down the street can point out all that is wrong and "PROPOSE" changes that involve government solutions necessitating governments expansion and raising taxes. ;)

[NeedKarma]

... and raising taxes. ;)

If you make under $250,000 then under Obama's plan your taxes will lower.

[inthebox]

The Tax Foundation - Both Candidates' Tax Plans Will Reduce Millions of Taxpayers' Liability to Zero (or Less)

According to the most recent IRS statistics for 2006, some 45.6 million tax filers—one-third of all filers—have no tax liability after taking their credits and deductions. For good or ill, this is a dramatic 57 percent increase since 2000 in the number of Americans who pay no personal income taxes.






Tax Foundation estimates show that if all of the Obama tax provisions were enacted in 2009, the number of these "nonpayers" would rise by about 16 million, to 63 million overall. If all of the McCain tax proposals were enacted in 2009, the number of nonpayers would rise by about 15 million, to a total of 62 million overall.

How is it possible to cut 95 percent of Americans' taxes when the Tax Foundation reports that 40 percent of Americans don't pay any income tax?

The dangerous thing is that, those who have no federal tax liability will look more favorably to voting themselves more government entitlements and thus increasing gov spending.

Of course for a significant percentage of workers; ssi, medicare, state, property taxes are much higher than their federal tax burden.

[speechlesstx]

The Tax Foundation - Both Candidates' Tax Plans Will Reduce Millions of Taxpayers' Liability to Zero (or Less)

Glad you brought this up, just exactly how will Obama lower taxes for people that pay no income tax? It's no wonder that:

• "60% of likely voters among nontaxpaying Americans favor Obama for president."
  
• "a majority of the 30% of Americans who don't pay federal income taxes agree with Obama's $65 billion plan to institute taxpayer-funded, universal health coverage."
  
• "A majority of nontaxpayers (57%) also favor raising the individual income-tax rate for those in the highest bracket to 54% from 35%. A majority of nontaxpayers (59%) also favor raising Social Security taxes by 4% for any individual or business that makes at least $250,000."
  
• ""Nontaxpayers support Obama's plans for increased tax deductions for lower-income Americans along with higher overall tax rates levied against middle- and upper-income households as well.
  
• They also want to expand their ranks from 30% of all Americans to 40%. Obama's tax plan, with its smorgasbord of deductions and credits aimed at lower-income households, would do exactly that."

So tell us, how do you give a tax break to someone that pays no taxes?

[ordinaryguy]

So what, exactly, do you think is the true change that we need? Is the whole idea of "constructive governance" just a lie told by the corrupt elites to dupe the virtuous masses? Are the ideas of "the common good", and "the public interest" nothing more than leftist political slogans that have no real validity?

So, inthebox, I guess you aren't going to answer my questions. That's what I thought. When it really comes down to it, you've got nothing do you?

I'd like to ask you the same questions I asked inthebox:
So what, exactly, do you think is the true change that we need?
Is the whole idea of "constructive governance" just a lie told by the corrupt elites to dupe the virtuous masses?
Are the ideas of "the common good", and "the public interest" nothing more than leftist political slogans that have no real validity?

Hey there, Tom, you got nothing to say? I'm not surprised. All bluff and bluster, no substance, just like your buddies.

[Galveston1]

The whole Obama tax plan is impossible. I'm certain he knows that, but he is depending on the dumb-masses to elect him on empty promises. I challenge any math that says ANYONE can do all Obama has promised, even if you leave off the extra programs he wants to create.

[inthebox]

So, inthebox, I guess you aren't going to answer my questions. That's what I thought. When it really comes down to it, you've got nothin' do you?


Hey there, Tom, you got nothing to say? I'm not surprised. All bluff and bluster, no substance, just like your buddies.

Sorry to keep you waiting,

Change, hmmmm

1] tell the truth
- about your education, your associates, your positions

2] stop promising more entitlements, when we can't keep the ones we have [ medicare , ssi ]

3] stop bringing race or age or gender into the issues of qualifications

4] vote against your party's position every once in awhile if it is to the benefit of the country

5] bring something NEW to the table
- how about the fair tax
- how about legalizing THC
- how about saying no to lobbyists and special intrests
- how about appreciating the big corps that employ people and provide goods and
Services that we all use and need
- how about demanding that the rest of the world step up and start defending
Themselves
- how about stopping illegal immigration
- how about going after fraud in medicare, medicaid, soc security, this ability
- how about aiming for 100% child support rates [ 50 % ] now
- how about truly rating the crap that is in today's entertainment industry
- how about personal responsibility - sorry you bought a home you could not afford, or
Sorry you lost your home because it is in an area below sea level and in hurricane
Path every year, or on top of a hill of mud etc...

[ordinaryguy]

And who currently on the scene do you think will bring this?

Well, I admit it's hard to get good help these days, but the Republicans have had eight years to show what they can do, and the debris is falling all around us. A party that has preached contempt for government ever since Reagan proclaimed "government IS the problem", and has corrupted the institutions of government and trashed the Constitution at every opportunity, needs to be out of power for several years so it can take some remedial courses in civics.

[tomder55]

OG sorry I did not reply in what you think is a suitably timely manner . I sometimes just quickly peruse long extended postings that go off topic.


Jefferson described good governance in his 1st inauguration :
....a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."

The problem with the liberal perscription is that, although it is well intentioned ,the unintended consequences outweigh the good.

[ordinaryguy]

Change, hmmmm

1] tell the truth

2] stop promising more entitlements, when we can't keep the ones we have

3] stop bringing race or age or gender into the issues of qualifications

4] vote against your party's position every once in awhile if it is to the benefit of the country

5] bring something NEW to the table

Hey! I agree! All of these would be a big change from every Republican administration that's been in power since 1981. But these are not the kinds of proposals I expected from someone who dissed David Brooks for suggesting that "the constructive act of governance" was a cop out from the "true change" that's needed to "destroy a corrupt establishment".

So how about answering my other questions as well?

Is the whole idea of "constructive governance" just a lie told by the corrupt elites to dupe the virtuous masses?
Are the ideas of "the common good", and "the public interest" nothing more than leftist political slogans that have no real validity?

As you may or may not remember, "to promote the general welfare" is one of the objectives that is set out in the preamble to the U.S. Constitution. I'm just trying to get a feel for how much of the Constitution you plan to repeal after your revolution to "destroy a corrupt establishment" is victorious.

[ordinaryguy]

Jefferson described good governance in his 1st inauguration :
....a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government."

So does this mean that you do recognize that there is such a thing as good governance, at least in theory? If so, I'm pleasantly surprised, but it does put you at odds with both McCain and Palin who are still flogging the "government IS the problem" line.

Let's see how the Republican track record measures up to Jefferson's vision:

"wise and frugal"? Bwa ha ha ha.
"restrain men from injuring one another"? If it were only women and children who were victims of violence, I guess they'd be able to claim success on this one. Alas, homicide is the leading cause of death among black men under 30 years of age.
"shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned"? How's your 401(k) portfolio doing these days?

The problem with the liberal perscription is that, although it is well intentioned ,the unintended consequences outweigh the good.

Is it a genetic thing for Republicans to answer the questions they want to answer instead of the ones that were asked, or do they teach you that in the Sarah Palin School of Debate?

I'll ask again. Are the concepts of "the general welfare", "the common good", and "the public interest" valid, or should we just get rid of them along with the Constitution?

[inthebox]

[QUOTE=ordinaryguy;1306313]"restrain men from injuring one another"? If it were only women and children who were victims of violence, I guess they'd be able to claim success on this one. Alas, homicide is the leading cause of death among black men under 30 years of age.

QUOTE]

How did you logically conclude that it is the fault of government that homicide is the leading cause of death among black men under 30 ?

Don't you think other factors like:
The break down of family, drugs, violent entertainment, a "victimization" mindset that contribute to that unfortunate statistic?

[tomder55]

So does this mean that you do recognize that there is such a thing as good governance, at least in theory? If so, I'm pleasantly surprised, but it does put you at odds with both McCain and Palin who are still flogging the "government IS the problem" line.

The government that is in office is the problem .President Bush succumbed to the caring government bs and the liberals have control of the Congress... perfect together.



The problem is that the government is the primary cause of this .Even the goofy Alec Baldwin realizes this :
YouTube - The 800 Billion Dollar Week | Bill Maher | Oct 3 2008

Relevant part of his rant if the link doesn't work:

The, the thing we have to remember, a friend of mine who is very close to the financial community in New York pointed out that Democrats have a lot of the responsibility for this as well. I mean, it was Clinton who killed the Glass-Steagall, and it happened under a Democratic president. Barney Frank and his committee, they, they kept propping up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac saying everything's fine, everything's fine, everything's good. And it was his job to know everything wasn't fine. And Barney Frank let you down and let us down as well. And so, but I want to say there's blame to go both ways. But I will say, I want to, I maybe keep beating this to death, but I still think anyone in this Congress who voted to add $140 billion to that bill, they should be ashamed of themselves. That is a disgrace. It's a disgrace. This Congress is a disgrace, Democrat and Republican.

The problem is that he will belly ache about Barney Frank and the Democrats are to blame in large measure for the subprime crisis... And he is entirely correct in saying there's enough blame to go around on both sides of the aisle.
But his and your perscription for what ails us is more of the same "caring government " .In the last few weeks we have found out how much “affordable housing” really cost. Ten years from now we will learn the cost of affordable health care

By the way .My 401K is doing fine.I realised a long time ago a basic fact of Wall Street... buy low ;sell high. So about a year ago I realised the market peaked and converted most of the 401K to a cash position(what they call a "guaranteed return " . )
But I do agree that most of Americans will open their quarterly statements this week and it will seal McCain's fate.