[freeman4]

Thanks, We can all agree to this agree, but in a good manner.

Thanks again.

[dwashbur]

freeman4, you say you post "information." But you clearly have a different definition of that than the rest of us do. We ask for biblical evidence for your unsupported statements, and you just give more unsupported statements. If you were backing things up with actual, good biblical exegesis, we might be able to have a conversation. But you brush everybody off by saying "you wouldn't understand anyway" and then complain about being insulted? I call shenanigans on that one. And all it would have taken was a little proofreading to realize you had written "commit" instead of "comment." As the sentence stood, it was confusing. Most people weren't making fun, they were genuinely puzzled. I'm a figure-outer by nature so I caught what you meant right away, but I'm a bit of an anomaly in my ability to do that.

We can indeed have a conversation, but it's going to require a lot more effort on your part to back up your statements. Anybody can assert something: I could assert that Jesus came back to earth riding on the back of one of the Perseid meteors this past weekend, but that wouldn't make it true, and people would (I hope) naturally ask me to back that up with some biblical evidence. That's all we've asked of you, but you have consistently refused to support your statements. That's why some of us have trouble taking your material seriously.

I hope this helps.

[freeman4]

I have posted responses and Articles that show why I believe what I do but evidently it is not to others satisfaction so they come back with, show me proof. I do not know how much more I can show that would be OK to some here because it does not fall within their realm of belief or understanding. Like, Hell, I posted showing that it would not be an eternal punishing, but would be a eternal punishment. There is a difference. That is the way that I understand it, I am not saying for everyone else to believe that .

[classyT]

Freeman,

I don't get the difference? Can you explain it to me ?

[freeman4]

"HELL" - IS THE GRAVE

HELL IS THE GRAVE

"HELL" - IS THE GRAVE

Hell is the grave
A place where we sleep
In Hebrew - called "Sheol"
In the ground, very deep

Job asked - could he rest there
When his troubles were sore
When life gave him problems
Which he heavily bore

Christ also went there
For three silent days
While he waited for Jehovah
His memory to raise

The Greeks called it "Hades"
A place they could hide
When death overtook them
And buried inside

All those forgotten
At deaths poignant door
Will lie in repose there
For many years more

Soon Christ will call out
And raise all the dead
From the slumber of hades
And the tears we all shed

~ ~ ~ ~

"Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused
through the early translators of the Bible
persistently rendering the Hebrew 'Sheol'
and the Greek 'Hades' and 'Gehenna' by the word 'hell'.
The simple transliteration of these words
by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible
has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion
and misconception."
-The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Surprisingly, fire is NOT mentioned in 78% of the
Verses where the word Hell appears in the King James
Version (KJV) bible. In the few remaining verses
Where fire and sinners are associated, it is clearly
NOT torture, but ANNIHILATION, which results.

The traditional concept of Hell does NOT come from
The inspired Hebrew or Greek manuscripts. It is a
Pagan myth adopted as Christian doctrine in the third
Century by church fathers. Yet, then as now, innocent
People are taught the traditional concept of Hell by
Trusted authority figures. That trust deters questions,
So for hundreds of years the myth has perpetuated.

"The Western religious from Roman times through
the Middle Ages borrowed the doctrine of eternal
torture from the Pagan Philosophers. Certain writers
of the Middle Ages had such tremendous influence
on the Christian-professing world, that their writings
and teachings came to be generally accepted and
believed, until it became the doctrine of the
Christian-professing world. Among these influential
writers were Augustine and Dante Alighieri."
-The Encyclopedia Americana

"Hell - any place, or some place covered over.
The word was first applied to the grave by our
German and English ancestors, and as superstition
came to regard the grave as an entrance to a world
of torment, Hell at length became the word used
to denote an imaginary realm of fiery woe."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

"the word Hell comes from the
Anglo-Saxon helan, to cover..."
-Dr. Adam Clarke

"SHEOL AND HADEES- neither of these words is ever
used in the Bible to signify punishment after death."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

"the words Sheol, and Hadees primarily signify
only the place, or state of the dead."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

"In every instance in the Old Testament,
the word "grave" might be substituted for the
term hell, either in a literal or figurative sense."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

"Hell - all the materialism of the heathen mythology
is suggested to the mind, and when rendered Hell,
the medieval monstrosities of a Christianity corrupted
by heathen adulterations is suggested. Had the word
been permitted to travel untranslated, no one would
give to it the meaning now so often applied to it.
Sheol or hades, primarily, and literally, the grave,
or death, is the precise force of the term, wherever
found."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

"Hades and Sheol signifies the state of the dead
in general, without regard to the goodness or badness
of the persons, or their happiness or misery."
-Dr. George Campbell

"The punishment expressed in this passage
is cutting off from life, destroying from the earth
by some special judgment, and removing to the invisible
state of the dead."
-Dr. Allen, of Bowdoin College

"It must not be forgotten that contact with the
heathen had corrupted the opinions of the Jews,
at the time of our Savior. By receiving the traditions
and fables of paganism, they had made void the
word of God. They had accepted Hadees as the best
Greek word to convey their idea of Sheol, but without
investing it at first with the heathen notions of
the classic Hadees, as they afterwards did."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

"[Christians] were in daily contact with Egyptians
And Greeks, and gradually began to adopt their
Philosophical and religious opinions, or to modify
Their own in harmony with them."
-Dr. Thayer in his "Origin and History"

"Pagans held Hadees to be a place of torment
After death, to endure forever."
- THE BIBLE HELL; by J.W. Hanson, D.D.
Fourth Edition; Boston; 1888

HELL IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

SOME BIBLE TRANSLATIONS RENDER "SHEOL" AS - HELL

OTHERS - RENDER 'SHEOL' AS 'THE GRAVE'

'Hell' is not a translation. It is a word that has been
inserted by translators into the Bible because of their
preconceived ideas about a place of eternal torment.
This idea is fast losing ground today as modern translators
realise that Hebrew words like 'sheol', simply meant -
the grave to the original inspired writers of the Scriptures
and "NOT" a place of torment.

'Hell' is an Anglo-Saxon word for grave
( a 'hell-grond' was a graveyard) and in the Old Testament
is usually translated from an original Hebrew word 'Sheol'
meaning pit or grave.

The word 'hell' is "derived from the Saxon helan, to cover;
Hence the covered or the invisible place."
-(Revised Easton's Bible Dictionary)

The prevailing pagan idea, at the time of the translation
Of the King James Version, about hell being a place
Where the wicked are being tormented, had influenced
The translators' interpretation of the Hebrew word "
-(Revised Easton's Bible Dictionary)

The prevailing pagan idea, at the time of the translation
of the King James Version, about hell being a place
where the wicked are being tormented, had influenced
the translators' interpretation of the Hebrew word ".

With the idea that hell is a place where the wicked
Are being tormented, the translators could not use
The word 'hell' to translate 'Sheol' in every instance,
For to do so would have put some of the most faithful
Servants of God in a place of torment.

For example, the first time the Hebrew word 'Sheol' is used
Is in Genesis 37:35 concerning Jacob - who was a faithful
Servant of God. It reads :
"And all his [Jacob's] sons and all his daughters
Rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted;
And he said, For I will go down into the grave [Sheol]
Unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.".

With the idea that hell is a place where the wicked
are being tormented, the translators could not use
the word 'hell' to translate 'Sheol' in every instance,
for to do so would have put some of the most faithful
servants of God in a place of torment.

For example, the first time the Hebrew word 'Sheol' is used
is in Genesis 37:35 concerning Jacob - who was a faithful
servant of God. It reads :
"sheol"
- (Genesis 37:35)

Jacob believed that his son Joseph had been killed
by a wild beast and said that he would go down
into Sheol unto his son.

In this verse the translators used the word 'grave'
for "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave [Sheol],
That thou wouldest keep me secret,
Until thy wrath be past,
That thou wouldest appoint me a set time,
And remember me!"

Job was experiencing much suffering while he was alive,
Which finally caused him to ask God to let him go to 'Sheol'
Where he knew he would have rest.

There is much more information I can provide if you want.

Leo:

[Wondergirl]

What's the difference between an "eternal punishing" and an "eternal punishment"?

[freeman4]

Punishing is a continual thing, last and last, it doesn't stop.

Punishment is like one that has been punished and it is finished, does not continue.

Scripture says Eternal punishment. Lets say you Set a piece of paper on fire it would eventually burn up, not burn forever. The same with a person because they will be resurrected to a physical state if they are not in Christ for judgment.

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." —2nd Thessalonians 1:8,9

Everlasting destruction means to not exist any longer.

[Wondergirl]

Punishing is a continual thing, last and last, it doesn't stop.

Punishment is like one that has been punished and it is finished, does not continue.

But you used the adjective "eternal" to describe both. Eternal means forever with no end.

[hauntinghelper]

But you used the adjective "eternal" to describe both. Eternal means forever with no end.

Exactly what I was going to say. That's like saying an infinite minute.

[freeman4]

Eternal death means death forever, does it not. Not life eternal in a burning torment. I thing God is a more loving God that to have some see their love one burn in hell forever while they watched from Heaven, don't you?

Why do individuals want people to be tormented forever so much? I would have more love for people that that.

[hauntinghelper]

You're looking at this from a human perspective.

[Wondergirl]

Do you think there is a Hell? With fire? Or does Hell mean something else?

[freeman4]

Yes I do. Gods Kingdom will be established for 1000 years on this Earth.

Rev 20:3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

The abyss is outer darkness. A place of bondage. This is Satan and his Demons.

Following is the time of the Return of Christ.

Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They [fn] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Next are those who have not accepted Christ and will not be resurrected until after the 1000 years have finished.

Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

Satan will be released for awhile.

Rev 20:8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

Rev 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Go and read a few verses further and you will see that those who did not accept Jesus Christ will burn up in hell fire.

[N0help4u]

I agree with hauntinghelper. We look at things from Human perspective. God is not about do and don't. It's a spiritual relationship with God.

[Wondergirl]

Yes I do. Gods Kingdom will be established for 1000 years on this Earth.

You've referenced only the Book of Revelation which I believe is over and done with, has seen its prophecy already fulfilled, from back in Nero's time.

Is there any other evidence in the Bible for a 1000-year reign?

[N0help4u]

How ciuld Revelation be done and over in Nero's time whenever the 1,000 year peace happens after and much of Revelation has never happened yet?

[N0help4u]

Revelation is end times

[Wondergirl]

How ciuld Revelation be done and over in Nero's time whenever the 1,000 year peace happens after and much of Revelation has never happened yet?

Revelation's prophecies are over and done with.

For instance, regarding Nero, Dwashbur's answer in the now-closed 666 thread was this: "In Hebrew, the name NRWN KSR numerically adds up to six hundred sixty-six. Thing is, a lot of manuscripts of Revelation read six hundred sixteen Why? Because there's an alternate spelling of the above name, based on Latin pronunciation rather than Greek or Hebrew. It comes out NRW KSR. That adds up to six hundred sixteen. So we know where that variant reading came from. When we fill in the vowels we get:

NERO CAESAR.

This is the "beast" of Revelation whose number was 666. As WG said, this stuff already happened. There is no future "antichrist" with this number coming in the future, he's already been here and done his thing and passed off the scene. Nero slaughtered Christians, was responsible for the execution of Paul and probably also of Peter, and nobody knows how many other innocent believers. From John's perspective, he was truly the raging beast described so symbolically in chapter 13."

[classyT]

WG,

That is strickly your opinion and dwashbur... I strongly disagree. I don't think the Revelation prophecies are done with by any means. I think Nero was a type of the antichrist by but in NO way is he the one John saw. I am NOT the only one that thinks this either. MANY people do... yes I a am dirty rotten dispensationalist. LOTS of people agree with me. :)

One of the things that baffles me the most is what you all do with Israel.. she is back in the land a nation built in a day. Just a silly coincidence I suppose. It happens all the time! Well maybe some of the time... ok well, maybe never. I don't believe in coincidence... not to God's chosen people.

[Wondergirl]

LOTS of people agree with me. :)

LOTS and LOTS of people agree with Dave and me. :D