[De Maria]

What does the Immaculate Conception mean and is it in the Bible?

[De Maria]

The doctrines of the Catholic Church need not be EXPLICITLY in Scripture. It is enough that they don't contradict Scripture and are consistent with Scripture.

The doctrine of the Immaculate conception is one of those. This doctrine says that Mary 1. was born without original sin and
2. never committed sin in her life.

Does Scripture say that Mary was born without Original Sin?

For that we must know what is Original Sin? Original Sin is the absence of Original Justice.

What is Original Justice? Original Justice is the condition in which Adam and Eve were created. They were created in a condition of friendship with God.

Adam and Eve lost Original Justice when they betrayed God by listening to Satan's suggestions rather than to God's command. At that moment they entered a condition of Original Sin. A condition of opposition with God.

When Adam and Eve lost Original Justice, they lost the condition of friendship with God and could no longer pass it down. Man now had to earn that condition by making a conscious effort to turn to God.

However, even in this condition, Scripture says that men existed who did not sin:
Romans 5 14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.

This takes care of condition #2. If men have existed who did not commit sin as Adam had done, then it is consistent with Scripture that Mary could as well.

But how about Original Sin, was Mary born in a condition of opposition to God? According to the Protoevangelium, the first Gospel, Jesus would be born of a woman and that woman would be the enemy of Satan.

Genesis 3 15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Therefore, since God has always destined the mother of Jesus to be the enemy of Satan, we believe that she was born without original sin.

There is another verse which says that Mary is the Kecharitomene. Its kind of complicated, so I'll let you read it here:
The Meaning of Kecharitomene: Full of Grace (Luke 1:28)

Sincerely,

De Maria

[cogs]

Why did adam and eve sin? Didn't they have it perfect, so they
Could have just told satan where to go? It's because they were
Tempted by their own lust, pride, etc. that's why satan didn't
Shove the apple in their mouths, because he only had to entice
Their will. Same with mary, she was not born without this ability
To be enticed through her will.

[RickJ]

It is not in the Bible. It is Tradition. Not unlike the doctrine of the Trinity: Not in the bible, but recognized as truth.

[Galveston1]

Rom 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(KJV)

Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(KJV)

Isa 64:6
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
(KJV)

These verses certainly seem to be all-inclusive. For you to say that Mary was born different from everyone else has no basis in scripture or logic. Mary was also present on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Ghost was given to the Churh, and she spoke with "tongues" as did the other believers present that day. She was a PENTECOSTAL!

I will ask the same question here that I asked in another thread. If you say you accept the Bible as the Word of God, then how can you also say that tradition or dogma is equal to the Bible? Did God say what He means? I submit that you can't have it both ways, because that becomes mutually contridictory.

[De Maria]

Rom 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
(KJV)

Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(KJV)

Isa 64:6
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
(KJV)

Do you believe then, that every single person without exception has sinned? Have little children who died in the womb sinned?

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

These verses certainly seem to be all-inclusive.

Do babies sin who die before the age of reason?

For you to say that Mary was born different from everyone else has no basis in scripture or logic. Mary was also present on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Ghost was given to the Churh, and she spoke with "tongues" as did the other believers present that day. She was a PENTECOSTAL!

Pentecostals did not exist until the 1900's. Mary was the first Christian.

I will ask the same question here that I asked in another thread. If you say you accept the Bible as the Word of God, then how can you also say that tradition or dogma is equal to the Bible?

Because the Bible says so:
2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

Did God say what He means? I submit that you can't have it both ways, because that becomes mutually contridictory.

We believe the entire Bible. We believe 2 Thess 2:14 just as strongly as we believe every other part of the Bible.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

why did adam and eve sin? didn't they have it perfect, so they
could have just told satan where to go? it's because they were
tempted by their own lust, pride, etc. that's why satan didn't
shove the apple in their mouths, because he only had to entice
their will. same with mary, she was not born without this ability
to be enticed through her will.

Can you prove that Mary sinned?

[Galveston1]

Perhaps I can clarify my question. When dogma is contrary to scripture, which takes precedent?

[JoeT777]

All:
The doctrine of Immaculate Mary was first recognized by Pope Pius IX in his pronouncement:

"We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful." Pope Pius IX ineffabilis Deus, December 8, 1854

Which was re-affirmed by Vatican II, finding Mary free from all guilt of original sin, (Cf. Rom. 8: 10-11) on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,( Cf. 1 Cor. 3: 16; 6: 19) and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe, that she might be the more fully confirmed to her Son, the Lord of lords (Cf Apoc. 19: 16) and the conqueror of sin and death .( Cf. Gal. 4:6; Rom. 8: 15-16 and 26.) ." Lumen Gentium, 59

And

Clearly from earliest times the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities.( Cf. Mk. 4: 26-29) Hence after the Synod of Ephesus the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation, according to her own prophetic words: "All generations shall call me blessed, because He that is mighty hath done great things to me". (Lk. 1: 66)

How is this “contrary” to Scripture?

JoeT

[Tj3]

It is not in the Bible. It is Tradition. Not unlike the doctrine of the Trinity: Not in the bible, but recognized as truth.

Recognized by some denominations.

[cogs]

I cannot prove that mary sinned. You cannot prove she did not sin. Only god knows. How can you tell if anyone you know has sinned or not? If you have never seen them sin, you might conclude they have never sinned, nor will ever. But in my own life, I have sinned, and the people I have been around have sinned. That's the whole reason jesus came to atone for, our sins. Mary had the holy spirit available to her. I hope god helped her walk closer to himself. What was available to her, is available to ourselves. May we hope to be as holy as you're saying mary was.

[sndbay]

It is not in the Bible. It is Tradition. Not unlike the doctrine of the Trinity: Not in the bible, but recognized as truth.

Recognize this?

In Heaven
1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

On Earth
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

[Galveston1]

Rom 11:32
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)

Gal 3:22
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
(KJV)

This is what I am talking about. Dogma says Mary was not concluded under sin. Which will you believe?

Does your Bible say Mary ascended to Heaven? Mine doesn't. Again, do you believe Bible or dogma?

If Mary is not included in the "all" of unbelief above, then she cannot be included in the "all" receiving mercy.

[JoeT777]

Recognize this?

In Heaven
1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

On Earth
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Can you explain? I don't understand how these verses deal with Rick's comments

[sndbay]

Genesis 3 15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.


De Maria

Unknown as scripture as it is posted, DeMaria.. Where did you get this?

KJV God is talking to satan..

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

God is still talking to satan

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; [ it ] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Eve was beguiled by satan.. God will put enmity between satan and Eve, and between satan's seed and Eve's seed.. [It] meaning Eve's seed will bruise satan's head, and satan shalt only bruise His heel...


Proof of beguiled... There was no apple...

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. KJV

II Corinthians11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

Who was satan's seed. The first murderer in the beginning, and why didn't God find favor in his fruits?

John 8:4 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Eve's seed would bring forth the generations to Abraham Isaac, Jacob.. on to the birth of Christ. thr the daughters of Aaron Levite Priest.. plus [the supposed father] of Jesus, Joseph.. This is the meaning of ( King of Kings, And Lord of Lords)

That is why Eve was called the mother of all living.. Because Christ would come thr the generations.

Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

This is not a debate.. This is Truth

[JoeT777]

If Mary is not included in the "all" of unbelief above, then she cannot be included in the "all" receiving mercy.

But why would Mary be included in “unbelief” when she was told by Gabriel that she would bear the Son of God?


JoeT

[sndbay]

Can you explain? I don't understand how these verses deal with Rick's comments

These verses show the three in "One" Trinity is a word description of the three in One.

In Heaven
1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

On Earth
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in One.

[JoeT777]

These verses show the three in "One" Trinity is a word description of the three in One.

In Heaven
1 John 5: 6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; [not by water only,] but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is Truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.

On Earth
1 John 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in One.

So finish the thought…and this has to deal with …and it means…? If you make me put words in your mouth, you'll find yourself turning Catholic all of a sudden.

JoeT

[sndbay]

So finish the thought…and this has to deal with …and it means…? If you make me put words in your mouth, you'll find yourself turning Catholic all of a sudden.

The Words in those scriptures posted are the Spirit of Truth which say all that is necessary. Read the scriptures. Who would man be to think he can or could say it better then what God, Himself has offered.

And I need not be anything other then a child of God who follows Christ Jesus.

[De Maria]

Unknown as scripture as it is posted, DeMaria.. Where did you get this?

The Douay Rheims:
Douay-Rheims Bible, Book Of Genesis Chapter 3

KJV God is talking to satan..

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

God is still talking to satan

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; [ it ] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

We consider this a prophecy of Mary and Jesus. God is telling Satan that He will be crushed.

Mary being the woman who bore a Son. Her seed. In the Douay version based on St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate, Mary crushes Satan's head by giving birth to the Saviour.

In the other versions based on the Greek Septuagint, Mary gives birth to the Saviour and He crushes Satan's head.

Eve was beguiled by satan.. God will put enmity between satan and Eve, and between satan's seed and Eve's seed.. [It] meaning Eve's seed will bruise satan's head, and satan shalt only bruise His heel...

Eve had no seed of her own. It was Semitic custom to name the Father's seed. Only Mary is ever called the Woman with seed.

Proof of beguiled... There was no apple...

Genesis 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. KJV

II Corinthians11:3-4 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].

But Mary was not beguiled. And Jesus is her seed.

Who was satan's seed. The first murderer in the beginning, and why didn't God find favor in his fruits?

John 8:4 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Eve's seed would bring forth the generations to Abraham Isaac, Jacob.. on to the birth of Christ. thr the daughters of Aaron Levite Priest.. plus [the supposed father] of Jesus, Joseph.. This is the meaning of ( King of Kings, And Lord of Lords)

That is why Eve was called the mother of all living.. Because Christ would come thr the generations.

Genesis 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

This is not a debate.. This is Truth

But you forgot to mention Mary, who is the Mother of those who keep the Commandments of God:
Apocalypse 12 17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

And the Virgin Mother of Jesus Christ:
Luke 1 27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

And He just happens to be God:
Luke 1 31 Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever.

Sincerely,

De Maria