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milney · Sep 3, 2008, 03:27 PM

Greetings everyone, first post!

Our bedroom ceiling fan started to flake out in that the light would work but the fan wouldn't always work. I just figured that the fan motor was starting to go but now I'm not so sure.

Since we bought our son a new fan for his room we decided to take ours down and install his old one in our bedroom. It's a UL brand.

The wires from the ceiling are white, black and bare. The wires from the fan are white, black blue, bare metal wire and then a green wire from the drop down bracket. For connections I did white to white, black and blue from fan to black in ceiling, bare wire from fan to screw on drop down bracket and green wire from bracket to bare wire from ceiling. Well, nothing is working. I removed the black and wire wire from the switch and connected them together... still nothing. I took my multimeter and tested AC voltage with the room switch off. The black ceiling wire had 120 volts regardless of switch position. The white wire only had 120 volts if the switch was on. I tested the switch but I always got 0 volts when testing from the black terminal to the white terminal.

I did a little experiment. I wired the white and black wires to a baby monitor plug in and reset the breaker. I couldn't get that to work either.

What am I missing? Two appliances don't work with this wiring but I'm showing voltage?

Thanks!

Mark

hkstroud · Sep 3, 2008, 03:40 PM

I'm a little confused here. In the ceiling box you have only three wires white, black and bare. No other wires correct. If so then at the switch you should have two black wires connected to the switch and two white wires connected together. If you have a black and white wire connected to the switch, you should have in the ceiling box, two black and two white wire. Please verify.

milney · Sep 3, 2008, 04:05 PM

Okay, verified that there is one wire bundle coming from ceiling. Wires there are white, black and bare. Now, there isn't a ceiling box. The bundle comes straight through the ceiling.

I pulled the switch and here's the wiring config for that. There are two wiring bundles in the housing. I'll call them #1 and #2.

#1: White to switch.
Black to connector #1
Bare connector #2

#2: White to connector #1
Black to connector #1
Bare to connector #2

There's also a black wire that goes from connector #1 to the switch. So, there are four wires in that 1st connector.

thommyschnak · Sep 3, 2008, 04:24 PM

O.K. first thing is first you need to install a fan box for your ceiling fan... What were you planning to attach it to? This is fairly easy, and if your wire location is on a beam you can purchase a fan pancake box, and screw it to the beam. Secondly it sounds like to me that someone was definitely doing some creative electrical work in your house. The situation that you are describing is called a bastard neutral, this is when someone has used the bare ground wire that runs from your switch to your fan location as a neutral, or white wire. They have done this in order to have two separate switch legs at the fan location (one for the fan motor, and one for the light on the fan. This will need to be corrected, you can start at the switch, and disconnect the wiring and start from scratch. Re-establish that you do have a ground, a neutral, and a hot at your switch box, and from there move on to installing your new fan box, and fan. It is very important to always have an electrical box at every junction point.

milney · Sep 3, 2008, 04:40 PM

Thanks! Creative wiring is right! In the spare bedroom we hear a pop coming from my sub woofer plugged in downstairs when we turn the switch on/off. Geesh.

I'm learning about AC electrics on the fly so we'll see how I do in fixing this. DC systems are easier for me to understand.

The old fan was mounted to the ceiling w/o a wire box. Two long screws went through the mounting bracket and into what I presume a beam since they were kind of hard to get loose.

So what do I need to do with the switch box? Do I need both wiring bundles? Thanks all for the help thus far.

Mark

hkstroud · Sep 3, 2008, 05:00 PM

No wonder you are having problems.

Sparky speak. What you are calling a bundle is a cable, connectors are wire nuts, bare is the ground, white is the neutral and black is hot.

Unwire everything except the bare ground wires. Just to verify that everything is as it should be, use you meter to verify that there is voltage between the black and white of each cable. You should have voltage between the black and white of one cable. You should not have voltage between the black and white of the other cable.

If this checks out connect the two white wires together with a wire nut. Connect the two black wires to the switch. It doesn't mater which goes to which screw.

You really need to install a fan box at the ceiling. All wiring connections must be made in an approved box. This is a fire prevention requirements.

Connect the white of the fan/light to the white of the ceiling. Connect the black and blue wires of the fan/light to the black of the ceiling. The switch will turn the fan and the light on and off. The switch will always have to be on for either to work.

What is the fan/light attached to? What is above the ceiling. Can you get above to install a proper box.
You cannot control the fan and light separately. You need a third wire between the fan/light and the switch. Apparently some one tried to control the fan and light separately using the ground as a neutral.

thommyschnak · Sep 3, 2008, 05:16 PM

Mark, If you cannot do the things that our left handed widget making friend has well described, please consider hiring a certified electrician to help you. Wiring is definitely no hobby, and making it one is the cause of many fires every year... Your trying to improve your home not burn it down!!

milney · Sep 3, 2008, 06:14 PM

I appreciate the advice thommy, I'm sure I can do it. I don't consider it a hobby. I'm just trying to save money and learn. Now that I understand how the circuit works the hard part is going to find a wire box for the ceiling fan. I'm going to climb in the attic to make sure there's a beam I can use. For the time being, I'm going to take the fan off for safety's sake.

Mark

hkstroud · Sep 3, 2008, 06:31 PM

If you have an attic above you have it made. Purchase a fan ceiling box. Pick the place you want to install, probably where wire comes through now. If not stick screwdriver through ceiling drywall. Check attic to make sure nothing interferes with that location. Use ceiling box to outline hole cut out. Put box in hole. Temporarily screw small strip of wood across box to hole it in place. In attic cut 2x4 to fit snugly between joist. Put 2x4 in place, down on top of box. Nail or screw 2x4 to joist. Remove strip of wood and screw box to 2x4.

If you wish you can drill hole in top plate of wall where switch is, right beside where existing wire comes out. Fish a 3 wire cable down wall to switch box. That's a 3 wire with ground cable. You can then wire fan and light separately.

thommyschnak · Sep 3, 2008, 07:14 PM

Mark, I do apologize for being so stern earlier, I just wanted you to realise the seriousness of what you are doing. :o
Harold is again correct, although it is not necessary to go through the steps with the 2x4. They sell boxes that are meant to be installed directly to the underside of beams, as-well as fan boxes that come with a fan brace bars that are meant to be installed in between ceiling joists, with or without attic's above. Let me know how you make out.:)

milney · Sep 3, 2008, 07:20 PM

No problem, no offense taken.

The way the old fan worked was the switch controlled the light only. The fan was independent of the switch and worked using the pull chain.

I'm going to get in the attic tomorrow and verify that there's a beam above the wiring. Then I'll hit Lowe's for a fan box.

Mark

ceilingfanrepair · Sep 3, 2008, 08:41 PM

Ok here's the situation:

Right now the white wire is being used as a switched hot, and the bare ground wire is being used as a neutral. This is NOT safe.

If you feel like tackling this, great, we'll help you. If not, call an electrician.

First step is opening up the wall switch and telling us how it is wired.

ceilingfanrepair · Sep 3, 2008, 08:43 PM

BTW UL is not a brand it means the fan is listed by Underwriters Laboratories. They certify that US electrical products are safe.

milney · Sep 3, 2008, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by ceilingfanrepair

Ok here's the situation:

Right now the white wire is being used as a switched hot, and the bare ground wire is being used as a neutral. This is NOT safe.

If you feel like tackling this, great, we'll help you. If not, call an electrician.

First step is opening up the wall switch and telling us how it is wired.

Thanks!

Next time I need to write down how an appliance was wired before disassembling. I just assumed everything was wired correctly. I was also dumb in the fact I took the old fan down w/o realizing the fan was always hot. I didn't shut off the breaker switch.

So the cable going from the switch box to the fan must have been wired like the following. White (switched hot) to blue (light), black (non switched hot) to black (fan), ground to white. I had tried the first two wires like above but never considered the ground being neutral.

Thanks again everyone, it's been a good day in that I learned a few things. As my grandpa always said... "It's boring if you know everything".

Mark

ceilingfanrepair · Sep 3, 2008, 09:32 PM

In this case writing down wouldn't have helped since the way the old fan was wired wasn't safe.

Your assumption of the wiring is correct. Please don't wire the new fan this way, instead modify the wiring to be safe. A ground wire should NEVER be used to carry current, even neutral current.

Tev · Sep 4, 2008, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by milney

Thanks!

Next time I need to write down how an appliance was wired before disassembling. I just assumed everything was wired correctly. I was also dumb in the fact I took the old fan down w/o realizing the fan was always hot. I didn't shut off the breaker switch.

So the cable going from the switch box to the fan must have been wired like the following. White (switched hot) to blue (light), black (non switched hot) to black (fan), ground to white. I had tried the first two wires like above but never considered the ground being neutral.

Thanks again everyone, it's been a good day in that I learned a few things. As my grandpa always said......"It's boring if you know everything".

Mark

I'd say you were more careless than dumb. You clearly have a brain in your head and knew there was still a hot wire there even if you didn't realize it. Here's some tips to help make sure you stay alive.

1. Think about all aspects of the job before you start.
2. Never assume anything.
3. Never rely on just a switch, always turn off the breaker.
4. Test your meter on a known live circuit.
5. Then test the circuit you just turned off.
6. Then check your meter again by testing a known live circuit.
7. After that, handle every wire with care anyway because mistakes happen.

I'm not trying to be an and it may sound a bit harsh but I'd rather come across that way than for someone get hurt.

Good luck on the rest of your project.

milney · Sep 4, 2008, 01:16 PM

LoL. Okay, I wired the switch and fan as advised so I could get the testing phase out of the way. In the switch housing I have two blacks going to switch, ground to ground, and white to white.

Here's what's happening now... lol. The project keeps getting bigger! At work we call this scope creep.

With the switch off, the fan and light do not work. But, the switch turns off an outlet in the room so that a reading lamp and clock turn on/off.

With the switch on, the pull chain for the lamp turns the outlet on/off. The fan pull chain operates the fan but only if the light pull chain is off. Even with the fan running the lamp connected to the outlet goes dim... not off. The fan lights do not come on at all.

I'm thinking that originally the switch operated the outlet and then the previous owner decided they wanted a ceiling fan. So, they wired the fan as discussed and also made it so the outlet bypassed the switch.

Mark

ceilingfanrepair · Sep 4, 2008, 01:29 PM

Here's the problem:

You can't just wire the fan the way we suggested without also changing the other end of the wire. You have to determine where the fan wire terminates (sounds like perhaps at the outlet). Then you have to reconnect it so white is NOT used as a hot, and ground is used as a ground.

Are there ANY OTHER WIRES in the switch box? If not, you might have to open up the outlet.

Or call an electrician.

milney · Sep 4, 2008, 01:59 PM

Thanks for the response. No, there's only two wires in the switch housing. I just ASSumed that the 2nd wire went straight to the fan. I will open up the outlet to see what's up. Only bad part is I get to move a big heavy king bed.

Mark

hkstroud · Sep 4, 2008, 05:34 PM

It appears that some one ran a cable from the ceiling fan to the switch box, used the ground as a neutral. The switch controlled the outlet or half of it. We thought that power was coming into the switch box. It was not, it was only a switch leg for the outlet. We are now running the outlet through the light of the fan/light .

Pull the outlet. If both halves of the outlet are switched you should find the hot black connected to a white wire going to the switch. The black of the switch cable (the one the white wire is in) will be connected to the hot screw of the outlet. Re-wire, connect the white of the switch cable to the neutral screw of the outlet. Connect the hot black wire (the one that was connected to the white wire) to the other hot screw of the outlet. The outlet will no longer be switched.

If only one half of the outlet is switched, replace the outlet. The connecting tab between the two hot screws will have been removed. Wire nut all the whites together and add a pigtail. Wire nut all the blacks together and add a pigtail. Use the pig tails to connect to the outlet.