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themoneypit · Sep 3, 2008, 11:49 AM

We bought an older house built in the 60's. In need of a lot of repair. I need to replace outlets that have no ground. What kind of outlet can I use. Someone put in updated outlets but there is no ground wire. I was told it was the wrong outlet to use.because there is no ground to connect to it HELP not ready to rewire house yet!:eek:

StaticFX · Sep 3, 2008, 12:50 PM

Well, you CAN use a 3 prong outlet (having the hole for the ground) it just won't be grounded.

Can you tell what's behind the outlet? Does it have a steel "tube" that the wires go through?
If so, then in many cases, the outlet box is grounded.. you would just need to attach ground from the outlet to the wall box.

***Im fairly sure of this but please someone else confirm this***

smearcase · Sep 3, 2008, 03:58 PM

It's a reasonable solution but if there is no ground, whoever is using the outlet in the near or not so near future won't know its an ungrounded outlet.
I am not a licensed electrician but it probably against code to replace a non-grounded outlet with one that appears to be grounded, Unless it is conduit or if by chance there is a ground wire hidden in the box, the best approach is to start running grounded cable portions at a time until it is done.
If the house is inspected in the future it will be picked up very simply if there is no ground.

hkstroud · Sep 3, 2008, 05:11 PM

At one time it was permitted by the code to replace an ungrounded outlet with a grounded outlet and connect the ground screw to the neutral. I don't believe that procedure is permitted any longer. I believe that the code does permit replacing an ungrounded outlet with a GFI outlet and marking it "Ungrounded", but I am not certain.

Maybe Stanforty will come by and clarify.
Where are you Stan?

ballengerb1 · Sep 3, 2008, 05:15 PM

Harold is correct that many people do install a GFCI when they have no ground wire. This is not allowed in many locations but it works to a certain extent. A GFCI does not function the same as a ground wire.

thommyschnak · Sep 3, 2008, 07:48 PM

Do yourself a favor and get a voltage tester that has a built in continuity tester. You can use this on your wiring to determine weather or not you have a ground present at your box by placing one lead on the white, or neutral wire, and the other on the metal of the outlet box. If you get continuity between the two you've got yourself a grounded outlet box. If this is the case you can use a self grounding outlet.

stanfortyman · Sep 5, 2008, 04:12 AM

The old practice of jumping the neutral to ground was a potentially VERY dangerous one. In fact, I never knew it was ever legal. If it was, it has been a critical violation for a very long time now.

Also, simply testing for continuity is not an acceptable check either. Old bx cable will show a ground as far as continuity goes, but is NOT an acceptable method of ground. The only time it is is if AC cable was run and there is the thin aluminum bond strip running with the conductors. This strip prevents fault current from following the spiral of the sheathing causing a "choke" effect which can actually heat up the sheathing enough to cause a quick fire. I've seen it happen!

Other than re-wiring the circuit, you can either put in a GFI at the head of the circuit using the "LOAD" terminals of course, and label all devices on the circuit "no equipment ground", or simply replace the receptacles with new two-prong units.
These methods do not provide a ground though. If you have critical circuits such as for computer or kitchen equipment the only real solution is to run new circuits.

themoneypit · Sep 8, 2008, 08:58 PM

Thank you! For all for your help. I am just going to mark ungrounded and have the house rewired this spring. Thanks again for taking time to help.

thommyschnak · Sep 10, 2008, 07:31 PM

Stan, Can you tell me where it says in the 2008 NEC that BX cable, (MFC), is "not an acceptable method of ground"? I can't seem to find that revision. :confused:

stanfortyman · Sep 11, 2008, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by thommyschnak

Stan, Can you tell me where it says in the 2008 NEC that BX cable, (MFC), is "not an acceptable method of ground"? I can't seem to find that revision. :confused:

Nice try tommy. I use that same tactic on inspectors when they try to enforce their own codes.

No, this is not a "revision" for 2008.

I said OLD "BX" cable. The kind without the thin bond strip. In fact, there is actually NO such thing as "BX cable". There is AC and MC. BX is simply a generally accepted term just like romex.

The real old BX did not have this thin bond strip so fault current would follow the spiral of the sheathing instead of following a linear path right down the cable.

See 250.118 and tell me where you see "BX" listed. I see MC cable and AC cable, but no BX.

thommyschnak · Sep 11, 2008, 03:37 PM

O.K than, you'll have to forgive me for using trade names, but the term BX is much more known than Armored Cable, or (AC). AC is what I was had referred to above, and it is most certainly an acceptable means of grounding. As a matter of fact, it is currently in use in approximately 70% of homes in the united states.
Check out article 333-21, it states, and I quote; "Type AC cable shall provide an adequate path for equipment grounding, as required by Section 250-51.
Article 250-51 states - Effective Grounding Path. The path to ground from circuits, equipment, and metal enclosures for conductors shall (1) be permanent and continuous; (2) have capacity to conduct safely any fault current likely to be imposed on it; and (3) have sufficiently low impedance to limit voltage to ground and to facilitate the operation of the circuit protective devices.
As you can see, "Bonding strip", or no "Bonding strip", AC cable has been, and will be an acceptable means of grounding, you just need to make sure that you use the proper connecters are always used.
I am not sure where you in article 250-118, see anything pertaining to AC cable?:confused:, and as far as your quotes; "The real old BX did not have this thin bond strip so fault current would follow the spiral of the sheathing instead of following a linear path right down the cable.", and; "This strip prevents fault current from following the spiral of the sheathing causing a "choke" effect which can actually heat up the sheathing enough to cause a quick fire. I've seen it happen!", the only time anything like this would happen is if you use the wrong size over current protection, you use the wrong type of connectors, or the connectors are not properly tightened.
In the future please check your facts before spouting incorrect information to unknowing handymen. This can be extremely exasperating to those who practice regularly.;)

stanfortyman · Sep 11, 2008, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by thommyschnak

the only time anything like this would happen is if you use the wrong size over current protection, you use the wrong type of connectors, or the connectors are not properly tightened.
In the future please check your facts before spouting incorrect information to unknowing handymen. this can be extremely exasperating to those who practice regularly.;)

YEAH! Nice try again buddy at trying to discredit me just because you disagree. Typical jersey attitude. :rolleyes:
Don't pull that crap with me and don't try and insult me until you get to know me better. THEN you can insult me all you want.
I KNOW my facts, and this is NOT incorrect information.

What do you "practice regularly"? Witchcraft? Jai-alai? Voodoo? Do tell... :rolleyes:

I have a good suggestion. Go over to Mike Holt's message board and ask this question. See what the replies are.

**EDIT - I suggest you have a look at this thread: really old BX - Mike Holt's Forum

stanfortyman · Sep 11, 2008, 06:31 PM

I knew I'd find it eventually. I never needed to prove this before. I thought everyone (in our trade) already knew this:

320.100 Construction
Type AC cable shall have an armor of flexible metal tape and shall have an internal bonding strip of copper or aluminum in intimate contact with the armor for its entire length.

Handbook commentary:
The armor of Type AC cable is recognized as an equipment grounding conductor by 250.118. The required internal bonding strip can be simply cut off at the termination of the armored cable, or it can be bent back on the armor. It is not necessary to connect it to an equipment grounding terminal. It reduces the inductive reactance of the spiral armor and increases the armor's effectiveness as an equipment ground. Many installers use this strip to help prevent the insulating bushing required by 320.40 (the ``red head'') from falling out during rough wiring.

thommyschnak · Sep 11, 2008, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by stanfortyman

YEAH! Nice try again buddy at trying to discredit me just because you disagree. Typical jersey attitude. :rolleyes:
Don't pull that crap with me and don't try and insult me until you get to know me better. THEN you can insult me all you want.
I KNOW my facts, and this is NOT incorrect information.

What do you "practice regularly"? Witchcraft? Jai-alai? Voodoo? Do tell... :rolleyes:

I have a good suggestion. Go over to Mike Holt's message board and ask this question. See what the replies are.

**EDIT - I suggest you have a look at this thread: really old BX - Mike Holt's Forum

I am not trying yo discredit or insult anyone, and I definitely am not out to get to know you better. My sole motivation for participating in this forum is to answer peoples questions accurately.
You sir are not remembering the original question; "We bought an older house built in the 60's. in need of alot of repair. I need to replace outlets that have no ground. What kind of outlet can I use. someone put in updated outlets but there is no ground wire. I was told it was the wrong outlet to use.because there is no ground to connect to it HELP not ready to rewire house yet!" As you will notice the question refers to a house built in the 60's, and the wire type was determined to be AC cable, this type of AC cable as I stated above is an acceptable ground, and is acceptable for grounding in this existing condition, as long as it is in fact grounded.
In this situation you are incorrect, and I apologize if you take this as an insult, but I am simply stating the facts.
As far as what I practice regularly, I am a licensed electrician, as I see you claim to be as well. I don't know where you are from, but talk about having an attitude, you have not only insulted me but all NJ residents by casting a major stereotype, you have some nerve! There is no need to be insulting, I have simply stated facts, in order to answer this question. Please do not reply to this post unless you can do so in a civil manner, this is a forum for questions and answers not for insults. Please try to remember this!

stanfortyman · Sep 12, 2008, 03:39 AM

DO NOT try and give me a lesson in forum etiquette. You especially have no place attempting that.
I only have an attitude when it is warranted, and you invited this one, so deal with it.

I know for 100% FACT that I am NOT incorrect on this one. I have provided facts and code references.

I am here for the same reasons, which is why I ONLY post information that I know is correct. If I am not, I am the first to admit it.

I have not seen this house so I cannot personally say that anything is proper or not. I can only provide information of what could be, and that I did.
You gave a blanket statement that all AC/BX cable is an acceptable ground, and that a simple continuity test is sufficient. I simply stated that this was not correct which seemed to irritate you so much that you felt the need to try and discredit me. THAT I will not stand for.

IF this house has newer AC cable then we both agree that it can be used as a ground. I NEVER denied that fact, and I specifically stated this in post #7.
My comments about older BX cable were not so much about this particular house but for anyone else who might read this thread and think that they can use any 70 year old bx cable for a ground,when in fact this is NOT acceptable.

I hope we're done with this.