[arcura]

notrubillah,
Please re-read Akoue's post slowly with an open mind.
Hes right both biblicly and historically.
Peace and kindness,
Fred,

[notrubillah]

Diatribe? Was my comment too aggressive? Sorry if you felt abused from my attacking rant. First I will give credit where it is due. Akoue, you truly seem like an intelligent individual, surely above my head in literary eloquence. You seem to have spent a little more time than really needed to put together such a well informed textbook counter argument. If you are not college educated, I would be truly chocked. Sadly though we are on two different sides of a VERY long table.
You called me an iconoclast? Personally I don't own any sledge hammers, but if I did, I don't believe I would get much joy out of smashing plaster. Sadly though, it seems the faith of Islam has one key element that mainstream Christianity seems to lack. They believe in ONE god. Although Allah is a sad misrepresentation of the one true God made by Ishmael, they did get one thing right.
I will answer you since you have taken so much pains taken time to deflate what you believe as a fools ranting.
Proskunesis? Microsoft word does not even have a proper spelling for proskunesis. It is one of them $5 words us common folk need to look up. Proskunesis in simple terms means to fall down before and worship. I know you will correct me if I am wrong. If I have given the impression that I personally believe you are consciously worshipping inanimate objects, it is not true. I am stating that it is wrong to carve, create, cast, any image (statue) and worship it. If God wanted statues of people put in His church, He would have told Solomon to do it. Just because the Catholic church has been doing it for so long does not make it right. The Catholic church has a history of changing theology continually. One easy thing you can look up is baptism. Catholics in the beginning of their church baptized in Jesus name, then, over the years they changed it to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One year the Pope said the communion bread became real flesh when taken, later another said it did not. The list goes on… I did not want to make this a catholic bashing session, but you keep throwing catholic theology at me.
Pictures for education? Not all people read, thankfully we live in a time that even the most unfortunate are usually able to read. Let’s go back a little though to the time of the apostles. If you can give me a single use by any apostle, or early church using paintings or statues to teach the illiterate, I would appreciate it. I don’t mean to directly ridicule, but want to keep things relevant.
I am not sure why you put “postures of worship” in your essay, but it held not water in any sense.
Last and truly not least is veneration. You ask a loaded question. Veneration is made of multiple aspects. The purpose is to honor previous saints. There is nothing wrong in respecting the past. There is a problem with worshipping it though. Through the making of statues and erecting them in the house of God, he distracts worship from the One God to other saints. There is no reason to pray to anyone but Jesus. In fact, the Bible warns against talking to the dead. I am sure you are familiar with these verses, but here you go anyway…Exo20:4, Lev26:1, Deu 4:16, Deu 4:23, Deu 4:25, Deu 5:8, Deu 9-whole chapter, Deu 16:22, Deu 27:15, Hab 2:18, Acts Ch19-whole chapter, Rom 1:23. It is not a sin to honor anybody, it is a sin to carve an image as unto the likeness to anything in Gods creation and worship.
I am not sure why you took so much time to express your concern, but there is only one truth. There is only one God, He came down and impregnated a common woman. He dwelled inside of a physical body, and resurrected that very same body to ascend to heaven. His name is Jesus. He and only He deserves all worship. There is no need for all these distractions. May they be statues or fancy cars, they are not God.

[arcura]

notrubillah
Still you do not understand.
Catholics do not worship idols or saints. They worship God.
As for for icons and images in the bible look them up here...
Ex 25:18-22, 26:1,31; Num 21:8-9... God commands images made.
1 Kings 6:23-29, 35, 7:29... Solomon's temple: statues and images.
Acts 19:11,12... Paul's handkerchiefs and aprons.
2 Kg 13:20-21... Elisha's bones.
Acts 5:15-16... Peter's shadow.
Mt 9:20-22... Jesus' garment cures woman.
I do not agree with your OPINION about pictures and statues in Church.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[notrubillah]

Exodus speaks about two cherubims around the mercy seat. Numbers speaks about the brazen serpent erected, it was not put in a church, nobody kissed it, in fact later (2 king 18:4) that very same IMAGE was broken down because people started worshipping it. 1 Kings speaks of more cherubims. None of these statues are of people, or placed all over the church. There were only specific locations for theses cherubims. The common person did not see them because of their location. The Oracle and the mercy seat were only places that the high priest was allowed to go. The rest of the referenes are great for showing what happened at some point or another in the Bible. God did not say to erect statues of people ever. He surely did not say to put the in His house. Where was any candles or incense burt for dead in the Bible? Please tell me where God tells people to kiss the toes of these statues.

[classyT]

...When you pray to God what comes to mind? Is it the crucifix hanging between your palms? That pretty angelic depiction of the tri-une god that is on the church ceiling. What great work has any saint done to deserve a statue in God's house? I am sorry for sounding condescending to our catholic friends. I call it where I see it. Why would you do something that the Bible tells you not to? I believe that some paintings of angels and times of the Bible are beautiful, but surely do not have any place inside church. I know that all depictions of Jesus are only artistic depictions of what the artist wanted to portray. God is a Spirit; He has no flesh or bones. Thinking on the fact that Jesus is the expressed Image of God, why would we try to remake this image with IMAGEs? Jesus specifically told us not to. This foolishness has further expressed how untoward humanity really is. Man needs no image to pray, and when you get the Holy Ghost, you tend to find the IMAGEs quite gaudy and a lot of times brutal. Why debate over this? God said don't do it, why do it? I am tired of hearing "well I don't think". Mainstream Christianity is falling prey to the same problems Athens had when Paul saw all their religions; he quickly rebuked them for doing such.

I hear you... and I am one (although I'm guilty of it from time to time) of saying "i don't think". HOWEVER, we are not under the law anymore but under grace. A symbol in someone's home of Christianity ( I have Bible verses displayed EVERYWHERE) is just that... don't make a big thing about it. Unless it really is an Idol. The Lord knows the heart.

Again as far as bowing before someone I'm NOT going to do that because it is clearly wrong. Giving someone respect is another thing. I am NOT catholic by the way. Not even close.

[Akoue]

If I have given the impression that I personally believe you are consciously worshipping inanimate objects, it is not true. I am stating that it is wrong to carve, create, cast, any image (statue) and worship it.

And yet you keep asserting it, even after being informed that you are mistaken. You are right, it is wrong to worship an image. So it's a good thing neither Catholic nor Orthodox Christians do so. In fact, worship of an image is regarded as a grave sin. "Proskunesis" is the word used in the Bible, this is what is prohibited. There is no prohibition whatsoever against veneration or respect. Christians are not Jews, we don't have the same attitude toward images that Jews, and later Muslims, did.

If God wanted statues of people put in His church, He would have told Solomon to do it. Just because the Catholic church has been doing it for so long does not make it right. The Catholic church has a history of changing theology continually. One easy thing you can look up is baptism. Catholics in the beginning of their church baptized in Jesus name, then, over the years they changed it to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One year the Pope said the communion bread became real flesh when taken, later another said it did not. The list goes on… I did not want to make this a catholic bashing session, but you keep throwing catholic theology at me.

Yes, I am instructing you in Catholic theology, this for the reason that your earlier posts made a point of criticizing Catholic theology.

You are confused about baptism. We have documents from the first century which indicate that people were baptized using the Trinitarian formula that is still in use today. I am unaware of any Pope denying the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, but would be interested to be shown otherwise. The belief in the Real Presence is an unbroken tradition in the Catholic Church.

Pictures for education? Not all people read, thankfully we live in a time that even the most unfortunate are usually able to read.

You must be unanware of the shockingly high rates of illiteracy in many parts of the US. And then there is Asia, Africa, and Latin America. Lots of illiteracy in all those places. Also, I never claimed that the sole purpose of images is to teach the illiterate. That's just one really important purpose they've served--and still do.

Let’s go back a little though to the time of the apostles. If you can give me a single use by any apostle, or early church using paintings or statues to teach the illiterate, I would appreciate it. I don’t mean to directly ridicule, but want to keep things relevant.

Well, the earliest churches to have been found all had lots and lots of icons. The catacombs too. Is that what you're asking for?

I am not sure why you put “postures of worship” in your essay, but it held not water in any sense.

The whole person worships. The body too.

Last and truly not least is veneration. You ask a loaded question. Veneration is made of multiple aspects. The purpose is to honor previous saints. There is nothing wrong in respecting the past. There is a problem with worshipping it though.

Agreed, worship is prohibited. Veneration isn't.

Through the making of statues and erecting them in the house of God, he distracts worship from the One God to other saints.

Not at all.

There is no reason to pray to anyone but Jesus. In fact, the Bible warns against talking to the dead. I am sure you are familiar with these verses, but here you go anyway…Exo20:4, Lev26:1, Deu 4:16, Deu 4:23, Deu 4:25, Deu 5:8, Deu 9-whole chapter, Deu 16:22, Deu 27:15, Hab 2:18, Acts Ch19-whole chapter, Rom 1:23. It is not a sin to honor anybody, it is a sin to carve an image as unto the likeness to anything in Gods creation and worship.

Again, the worship of anything other than God is a grave sin. Catholics worship the Trinity and only the Trinity.

Also, Catholics aren't Jewish and so don't adhere to Jewish law. Do you?
Acts 19: Catholics don't worship false gods. Catholics worship the Holy Trinity.
Rom.1.23: Catholics don't worship false gods. Catholics worship the one true God, the Trinity. Worship belongs to God alone.

I am not sure why you took so much time to express your concern, but there is only one truth. There is only one God, He came down and impregnated a common woman. He dwelled inside of a physical body, and resurrected that very same body to ascend to heaven. His name is Jesus. He and only He deserves all worship. There is no need for all these distractions. May they be statues or fancy cars, they are not God.

Yes, there is only one truth. And you are on the wrong side of it. Veneration isn't a distraction from God. It brings us closer to him. If you find it a distraction, perhaps the problem is yours, not the Church's.

[notrubillah]

OK well Akoue, you have spoken... what did you accomplish? I appreciate that you have been turthful in admitting you worship multiple gods. If I did that, I would probably need statues too. If I dug up runes from a temple of Baal, I would probably find statues of Baal. The same does not surprise me about old Catholic churches... Before assuming on which side of the Truth I am on, you should figure out where you stand.

[notrubillah]

ClassyT, please don't think I attacking your home décor. Don't though think you are lawless. Christ said that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill. Romans chapter 2discusses the intent that we are not bound by the law. If we were bound by the law, we would all perish, but Grace is that saving factor. Grace is not blind though, it is a teacher unto perfection.

[arcura]

notrubillah,
Nowhere did I see that Akoue admitted to worshiping multiple Gods. He said that he worshiped the one and only God who also happens to be a trinity of three persons in one being.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

[Akoue]

OK well Akoue, you have spoken...what did you accomplish? I appreciate that you have been turthful in admitting you worship multiple gods. If I did that, I would probably need statues too. If I dug up runes from a temple of Baal, I would probably find statues of Baal. The same does not suprise me about old Catholic churches... Before assuming on which side of the Truth I am on, you should figure out where you stand.

Well, what part of the simple distinction between worship and veneration do you not get? Is it just that you've sort of made up your mind that veneration looks kind of worshippy and so must be worship? If so, that doesn't look like a problem for anyone other than you. It certainly isn't anything that Catholics should worry about, that notrubillah thinks it looks kind of worshippy.

[classyT]

ClassyT, please don't think I attacking your home decor. Don't though think you are lawless. Christ said that He did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill. Romans chapter 2discusses the intent that we are not bound by the law. If we were bound by the law, we would all perish, but Grace is that saving factor. Grace is not blind though, it is a teacher unto perfection.

And when he said that he was talking to the Jewish nation. We are no longer under the law and the Apostle Paul taught that in his epistles.

[ThtVoiceInsideU]

Quoting De Maria :
We bow before the Pope because he represents Christ:
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

You left out the preceding verse 16 "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Peter wasn't the rock. Peter's confession that Jesus was the Son of the living God was the rock that his Church was to be built upon.

Quoting De Maria:
Catholics do this and the last time I checked the pope wasn't God. But Jesus is God and Jesus appointed the Pope to represent Him on this earth. Just a God appointed Moses to represent Him in the Old Testament:
Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Where do you find in the Bible that the pope represents Christ?

Quoting De Maria :
The pope bows before a statue of Mary. Sure does. Because she is Jesus' mother. The Queen of Heaven:

Where do find in the Bible that Mary is the Queen of Heaven?

God Bless

[paraclete]

That voice you won't find a Catholic who can tell you where these things are in the Bible because they are part of Catholic tradition not Biblical revelation and we know that Jesus told us it is by your traditions you nullify the Word of God

Catholics cling to the idea that papal authority is essential for salvation, that those believers who are outside their church are somehow outside Christ's redemption

[OverWhelmingYou]

notribillah = halliburton backwards, Google notribillah, and you get NEW WORLD ORDER. There is some truth! There is only one almighty creator of all, Some call him,Allah, I am, Yeshua, God of Abraham, others call him YAwe, Jesus the son and holy ghost. This is the true power of the Universe. Any one, any where, can invoke his name and be overcome with his spirit through Prayer alone. Saturday is the true Sabbath day. Sat in spanish is SABADO = Sabbath Day, Seventh Day, Day of rest and of God. Sunday = The Day of the Sun = worship of RA - egyptian sun god. Constantine changed our calendars to make it work this way during roman empire. The lord says not to worship false idols in his name. Jesus had no budget for décor, he felt money was better spent on the poor or given away entirely and he is our ultimate example. Every major church spends more and more on décor every succeeding year, because churches are businesses. The truest faith on earth, has been the Hebrew religion, they have no paintings of their creator, because he is too devine. His nature is spiritual, as the nature of faith is only valuable to the individual, all else is truly seen as one form of vanity to another. Your church can be made of twigs and spit, the spirit will follow with his teachings, and sharings, regardless the monetary assets.

[De Maria]

Quoting ThtVoiceInsideU :

You left out the preceding verse 16 "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Peter wasn't the rock. Peter's confession that Jesus was the Son of the living God was the rock that his Church was to be built upon.

Spoken like someone who hasn't read the Bible. If it were the confession, then Peter would not be the Pope. But Nathaniel. You see, Nathaniel made that confession before Jesus even gathered the 12 Apostles. Have you not read in Scripture:
John 1:49
Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Two things to note here. Just 6 verses earlier, Jesus had already changed Simon's name to Rock:
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.

That proves one thing. The name which Jesus gave Simon, had nothing to do with the confession. It had to do with the capacity to which God had called Simon to serve.


Quoting ThtVoiceInsideU:

Catholics do this and the last time I checked the pope wasn't God.

I never said he was. Nor does the Catholic Church teach that he is God.

But Jesus is God and Jesus appointed the Pope to represent Him on this earth. Just a God appointed Moses to represent Him in the Old Testament:
Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharao: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Where do you find in the Bible that the pope represents Christ?

In the name which Jesus chose to give Simon. Cephas means Rock. And Jesus is the Rock of our faith. Do you deny it?

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Therefore, Jesus gave Simon His own name, thereby showing that Simon represents Christ before the people. He did it again in this verse:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

The Good Shepherd assigned Simon as the Vice-Shepherd, so to speak. To guide His sheep in His absence.

Quoting ThtVoiceInsideU :

Where do find in the Bible that Mary is the Queen of Heaven?

Rev 12:1
Revelation 12:1
King James Version (KJV)
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

That woman is Mary.

God Bless

You too,

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

That voice you won't find a Catholic who can tell you where these things are in the Bible because they are part of Catholic tradition not Biblical revelation and we know that Jesus told us it is by your traditions you nullify the Word of God

If you read my reply to Thtvoice.. you'll see that I pointed out the Scriptures he needed to know.

Oh and Christ objected to "traditions of men". But Scripture commands that we keep the Sacred Traditions of Jesus Christ. Which we do:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Catholics cling to the idea that papal authority is essential for salvation, that those believers who are outside their church are somehow outside Christ's redemption

YOU don't know Catholic doctrine very well. However, it is true that without the Sacraments, no one will be saved in this life.

Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And all Catholics are baptized with the only efficacious Baptism. The Baptism of Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[paraclete]

notribillah = halliburton backwards, google notribillah, and you get NEW WORLD ORDER. there is some truth! There is only one almighty creator of all, Some call him,Allah, I am, Yeshua, God of Abraham, others call him YAwe, Jesus the son and holy ghost. This is the true power of the Universe. Any one, any where, can invoke his name and be overcome with his spirit through Prayer alone. Saturday is the the true Sabbath day. sat in spanish is SABADO = Sabbath Day, Seventh Day, Day of rest and of God. Sunday = The Day of the Sun = worship of RA - egyptian sun god. Constantine changed our calenders to make it work this way during roman empire. The lord says not to worship false idols in his name. Jesus had no budget for decor, he felt money was better spent on the poor or given away entirely and he is our ultimate example. Every major church spends more and more on decor every succeeding year, because churches are businesses. The truest faith on earth, has been the Hebrew religion, they have no paintings of their creator, because he is too devine. His nature is spiritual, as the nature of faith is only valuable to the individual, all else is truely seen as one form of vanity to another. Your church can be made of twigs and spit, the spirit will follow with his teachings, and sharings, regaurdless the monetary assets.

No I will not call Jesus allah because that word is not used by muslims to refer to Jesus, but to a deity whose very description contradicts the Bible. Jesus is Yeshua, literally; I am salvation, a name God applied to himself in both the Old and the New Testament, I will also call him YHWH as the jews did although they would not speak that name.

Jesus is lord of the sabbath so it matters not what day we call the sabbath since how can we be sure of anything in our calendar, but as long as we observe a sabbath. Christians observe Sunday as a sabbath to commerate the risen Lord because if Jesus has not risen we have no salvation. The Bible tells us that such debates are futile