[Moparbyfar]

Originally posted by Sndbay:

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

This verse in scripture tells us that the fallen angels did reproduce upon the earth with woman.

Aah yes, but they had to materialize into human form first before they could reproduce. This indicates that they were not created originally in spirit form to bear children (which I'm guessing is what Patriarch was meaning).
Certainly the desire could grow in their heart to sin but not all Sons of God did. So although the bible does say that some of the angels rebelled by leaving their original position (Jude 6) it doesn't support any ideas that angels were in fact created with the purpose of reproducing.

[sndbay]

Originally posted by Sndbay:

Aah yes, but they had to materialize into human form first before they could reproduce. This indicates that they were not created originally in spirit form to bear children (which I'm guessing is what Patriarch was meaning).
Certainly the desire could grow in their heart to sin but not all Sons of God did. So although the bible does say that some of the angels rebelled by leaving their original position (Jude 6) it doesn't support any ideas that angels were in fact created with the purpose of reproducing.

The exact meaning: They left their own "oiketerion"

It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God". For what is "born of the flesh is flesh". God is spirit, and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).

Those "in Christ" having "the new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2Cor. 5:17. Eph. 2:10) can only be called "sons of God" (John 1:13. Rom. 8:14, 15. 1John 3:1).

This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Ps. 29:1; 89:6. Dan. 3:25 .

We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense.

In Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels". Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4. Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God.

Note: That there was a fall of the angels is certain from Jude 6.

The nature of their fall is clearly stated in the same verse. They left their own oiketerion. This word occurs only in 2Cor. 5:2 and Jude 6, where it is used of the spiritual (or resurrection) body.

AND the nature of their sin is stated to be "in like manner" to that of the subsequent sins of Sodom and Gomorrha, Jude 7.

The time of their fall is given as having taken place "in the days of Noah" (1Pet. 3:20. 2Pet. 2:7).

For this sin they are "reserved unto judgment" 2Pet. 2:4, and are "in prison", 1Pet. 3:19.

Their progeny, called Nephilim (translated "giants"), were monsters of iniquity; and, being superhuman in size and character, had to be destroyed. This was the one and only object of the Flood.

Only Noah and his family had preserved their pedigree pure from Adam (Gen. 6:9, see note). All the rest had become "corrupt".

This irruption of fallen angels was Satan's first attempt to prevent the coming of the Seed of the woman foretold in Genesis 3:15. As soon as it was made known that the Seed of the woman was to come through ABRAHAM, therewas another irruption, as recorded in Gen. 6:4, "and also after that" the aim of the enemy was to occupy Canaan in advance of Abraham, and so to contest its occupation by his seed. For, when Abraham entered Canaan, we read (Gen. 12:6) "the Canaanite was then already in the land." In the same chapter (Gen. 12:10-20) we see Satan's next attempt to interfere with Abraham's seed, and frustrate the purpose of God that it should be in "Isaac". This attempt was repeated in 20:1-18.

This great conflict may be seen throughout the Bible

In each case the human instrument had his own personal interest to serve, while Satan had his own great object in view. Thus God had, in each case, to interfere and avert the evil and the danger, of which his servants and people were wholly ignorant.

The irruption of "the fallen angels" ("sons of God") was the first attempt; and was directed against the whole human race.

Man must learn the (spiritual existence) verses the (flesh existence) in both given difference to heaven and earth, and for understanding all that is written.

[ordinaryguy]

Sons of God are the fallen angels

I just went back and re-read the first six chapters of Genesis, and I can find no support at all for this assertion. Angels aren't even mentioned. What is mentioned is are the genealogies of Adam and his descendants. In context, it seems clear that "sons of God" means the male descendants of Adam. You're making this "fallen angels" thing up out of thin air.

[sndbay]

I just went back and re-read the first six chapters of Genesis, and I can find no support at all for this assertion. Angels aren't even mentioned. What is mentioned is are the genealogies of Adam and his descendants. In context, it seems clear that "sons of God" means the male descendants of Adam. You're making this "fallen angels" thing up out of thin air.

The exact meaning: They left their own "oiketerion" is a Greek word for a dwelling house or habitation of the spiritual in heaven.

Note that any refer of sons of God would be spiritual..I think I clearly posted that fact. We immediately know those refer as sons of God in Genesis 6 were spiritual, however they left the spiritual existance or house to do wickedness.(oiketerion) So I am not saying all sons of God are fallen angels, but indeed those refer of Genesis 6 are the exception who did leave their spiritual house..

2 Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Jude 6:1-2 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Fallen Angels with satan

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Do you believe there were fallen angels? And if so then where do they appear in the bible which tells you this is so? If not tell us why?

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

[ordinaryguy]

We immediately know those refer as sons of God in Genesis 6 were spiritual, however they left the spiritual existance or house to do wickedness.(oiketerion) So I am not saying all sons of God are fallen angels, but indeed those refer of Genesis 6 are the exception who did leave their spiritual house..

No, I'm sorry, there is no indication of this at all in the first six chapters of Genesis. You're quoting books that were written much, much later and have nothing in particular to do with the Genesis story, except in your own interpretation. I don't buy it.

[sndbay]

No, I'm sorry, there is no indication of this at all in the first six chapters of Genesis. You're quoting books that were written much, much later and have nothing in particular to do with the Genesis story, except in your own interpretation. I don't buy it.

And many people make the mistake in thinking one or two verses say it all, or that one book holds everything there is to know about a certain event. That actually is so far from what Our Father intended.
The concept of the bible and all it's verses interlock continuously to derive to the conclusive truth without doubts. The efficiency of Spiritual Truth is far greater to each individual in the end, if they read all of bible.

[ordinaryguy]

And many people make the mistake in thinking one or two verses say it all, or that one book holds everything there is to know about a certain event. That actually is so far from what Our Father intended.

You still haven't made your case that the "Sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6:2 are really "fallen angels". It's just not there. Sorry.

[Moparbyfar]

I don't know about you lot, but I'm getting a bit confused after reading some of the replies here. :confused:
My response to Sndbay was regarding the angels not being created to reproduce. Their response to me was to prove that the angels are Sons of God. Obviously we've got our wires crossed here. I know what my bible says and it certainly calls God's angels "Sons of God". I am not disputing that. What I am disagreeing with, is the thought of these Son's of God being able to reproduce like humans. They had to become humans in order to have children as spirit creatures cannot... that is my only point.
I think I probably misunderstood Sndbay's response to Patriarch in that Snd was in fact (I"m guessing) talking about the remark about the angels having no gender - right? My bad! :D

[Patriarch]

Angels transformed into human form and cohabited with women, not as they naturally are, invisible and intangible spirit beings. The only way that they could copulate with human women was to become physical beings that attract women. But in their true form they have no gender. Angels are sons in the sense that God created them as a man through procreation produces a child of himself. Though God does not reproduce through physical means, for he is a Spirit not a man. I do think you just misunderstood me or read into my statements more than what was there. Ido appreciate your comments and agree with your point about the start of evil.

[sndbay]

Angels transformed into human form and cohabited with women, not as they naturally are, invisible and intangible spirit beings. The only way that they could copulate with human women was to become physical beings that attract women. But in their true form they have no gender. Angels are sons in the sense that God created them as a man through procreation produces a child of himself. Though God does not reproduce through physical means, for he is a Spirit not a man. I do think you just misunderstood me or read into my statements more than what was there. Ido appreciate your comments and agree with your point about the start of evil.

We agree.. But I do not feel everyone that has posted also understands. The original topic was side track by the idea that angels could not reproduce, when the scriptures do indeed tell us that it was done against God's Will by the fallen angels.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept [not ]their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The angels did not kept their first estate..they left their [own] habitation.. It made God very anger and God put them in chains... until judgement day... I have example the Greek word for habitation, and that an individual has to understand the spiritual realm of angels leaving that realm to enter into flesh. Their [own] spiritual realm was left!

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The angles came to earth leaving their spiritual realm and it was of the like manner to Sodom and Gomorrha doing fornication, and going after strange flesh.. This is an example God has set forth to any who do as Sodom and Gomorrha..

Perhaps I should ask who studied or has been taught the story of Sodom and Gomorrha? Who read the story understands what was truely taking place ? What up set God and brought God to anger, and to the point that thousands were destroyed by the wrath of God for what they had done? Maybe this is a question for a different topic discussion..

Sodom and Gomorrha was in like manner to what the fallen angels did.. Fallen angles are the sons of God that left their realm in Genesis 6:2. Posting 22 explains and offers the scriputre refer throughtout the bible.

[sndbay]

You still haven't made your case that the "Sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6:2 are really "fallen angels". It's just not there. Sorry.

sons of God are of a spiritual realm... And they were doing wickedness...

Who are the sons of God in Job 1:6 ? The fallen angels that followed satan.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Man on earth are known as children of God, who have been spiritually cleaned..

[Patriarch]

Angels in their true form cannot reproduce. They only reproduced when they took human form, because they then had normal human functions. Even then their children were abnormal freaks of nature called Nephlim.

[Patriarch]

The Bible only tells of three kinds of angels. The other terms such as pricipalities and thrones only indicate their different arrangements and function in the spirit realm.

[ordinaryguy]

Who are the sons of God in Job 1:6 ? The fallen angels that followed satan.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

OK, read this again, carefully:

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

It does NOT say that the "sons of God" are fallen angels. Why would fallen angels be coming together "to present themselves before the LORD", anyway? All it says is that Satan showed up at the same time they did. He crashed the party, that's all.

If you want to use the Bible to support your argument, you need to stick with what it actually says.

[sndbay]

OK, read this again, carefully:
It does NOT say that the "sons of God" are fallen angels. Why would fallen angels be coming together "to present themselves before the LORD", anyway? All it says is that Satan showed up at the same time they did. He crashed the party, that's all.

If you want to use the Bible to support your argument, you need to stick with what it actually says.

Usually when you speak of a gang they hang out together or [among] each other...

Try reading more of the bible... 2 Peter actually tells of the angels being present in sin during Noah and the Flood. God did not spare them..

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

[ordinaryguy]

Usually when you speak of a gang they hang out together or [among] each other...

There is no mention of a "gang", or any indication that the "sons of God" were angels of any sort, much less those who were in cahoots with Satan. They came together, and he showed up as well, that's all it says. The rest, you're making up to suit yourself.

Try reading more of the bible... 2 Peter actually tells of the angels being present in sin during Noah and the Flood. God did not spare them..

Again, no indication that the term "sons of God" refers to fallen angels.

I really don't care if you make up things to support your own ideas about the way the universe works, just please stop insisting that the Bible says what it clearly does not say.

[sndbay]

1 + 1 = 2

2 + 2 = 4

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Jude 6:1-2 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sons of God are the fallen angels

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Scripture tells us that the fallen angels did reproduce upon the earth with woman known to be gaints (Nephilim).

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

This continues to tell us where evil came from, and it has shown satan's work to deceive people.

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

So came the flood of Noah's time to wash the earth of evil.

Genesis 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

[ordinaryguy]

1 + 1 = 2

2 + 2 = 4

I agree with your arithmetic, but your logic is faulty.

Sons of God are the fallen angels

I'm sure you're sincere in your belief, and I respect your freedom to choose it, based on any source whatsoever, including visions in the night. I'm just pointing out that none of the scriptures you cite actually support your conclusion. The more often you repeat them, the clearer that fact becomes. Yes, the Bible does say that "sons of God" cohabited with the "daughters of men". But it DOES NOT say that these sons of God were fallen angels. It just isn't there, and your repetition doesn't put it there.

[Moparbyfar]

Who are the sons of God in Job 1:6 ? The fallen angels that followed satan.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

The angels spoken of in Job 1:6 cannot be the fallen angels. Why? Because when those angels left their original position in heaven to sin, they were banned from God's heavenly arrangement (Jude 6) as I've posted in a previous post, and this scripture (Job 1) is recorded much later. So when Job speaks of the Sons of God taking their station before God, it can only be talking about the Sons that did not "forsake their own dwelling place".
Satan entered among them as an intruder of spiritual family affairs. This happened on two occasions as Job 2:1,2 reveals.

[sndbay]

The angels spoken of in Job 1:6 cannot be the fallen angels. Why? Because when those angels left their original position in heaven to sin, they were banned from God's heavenly arrangement (Jude 6) as I've posted in a previous post, and this scripture (Job 1) is recorded much later. So when Job speaks of the Sons of God taking their station before God, it can only be talking about the Sons that did not "forsake their own dwelling place".
Satan entered among them as an intruder of spiritual family affairs. This happened on two occasions as Job 2:1,2 reveals.

True, as I posted in #22 This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. Ps. 29:1; 89:6. Dan. 3:25 .

We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense. Meaning we can not say they are not angels, but they too are angels, and they are bad angels refer: fallen angels.

Confirming angels are the "son of God" where in Genesis 6:2 angels as the sons of God, are the fallen angels.. Is this clearly understood?


Jude 6:1-2 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.