[ScottGem]

I initially had the same reaction as Judy, but I found some case law (can't find it right now) where the courts gave the right to "fine" a shoplifter. The idea was to provide a deterrant. The case was bought against the Hudson's Bay Co. and the court's affirmed their ability to charge the offender an amount for such a crime. I believe the idea is reimbursement for the time of the security guard in processing.

[JudyKayTee]

I initially had the same reaction as Judy, but I found some case law (can't find it right now) where the courts gave the right to "fine" a shoplifter. The idea was to provide a deterrant. The case was bought against the Hudson's Bay Co. and the court's affirmed their ability to charge the offender an amount for such a crime. I beleive the idea is reimbursement for the time of the security guard in processing.,

I find this bizarre because my understanding is that a fine is the option of the Court to "punish." However, if Scott says so I believe him!

I'm not questioning the right of the store to "charge" the person for the store's time and trouble - I am just surprised by the word "fine."

But again - I believe Scottgem and stand corrected.

[emery]

Hi there, I',m from Canada and you will probably not get a fine from the store, you will probably get diversion program and have to pay restitution to Loblaws. When is your first court date, that is when you will find out if they will agree to diversion, which they most likely will however if for any reason they do not you still have time to get a lawyer before the next court date. Let us know what happens please.

[squirm]

This post is for all Canadian, ontario living first time offenders. Many "experts" on this help desk are far from knowledgeable in Canadian Law. I have been in this situation before and have a little bit of experience. I know I not only speak for myself when I say anyone who comes here, scared less of what they just did and feel terribly stupid and sorry and just want to find out what they can do and how the system works. {untrue shot removed-<>} Good, honest people mess up sometimes.
Here is some advice that is hopefully helpful as apposed to demeaning.
Having spoken with several lawyers, they will all tell you that they can defend you for $2500 dollars. This cost will get you a lawyer who goes to the court for you (you never have to appear) and they ask the judge for a diversion which is 90% of the time granted if you have no previous record. Along with the diversion and included in the lawyer fee (sometimes) Is a charitable donation made by "you" that doubles the amount of what you stole. The Lawyer should also submit a request to have your finger prints expunged. So if you have the money the lawyer is a good option. There are also student and less experienced lawyers available between $500 - $1200(not including charitable donation) . They can all do the same thing, but will usually need more participation on your part. Ie: letters of recommendation for schools, jobs, things that make you look like a good citizen. Now, there is also the option of representing yourself and only coming up with the charitable donation money, just show up to your court date early, get a public defender to explain you the ropes. This is more risky and more involved, but works. I hope this helps you all. This only works once though guys. Whatever reasons we have for our actions, PLEASE just learn from them and NEVER do it again!!

PS if you represent yourself DO NOT forget to send the request to have your finger prints taken off record, you can do this yourself and you do not want them to come back and haunt you.

[ScottGem]

This post is for all Canadian, ontario living first time offenders. Many "experts" on this help desk are far from knowledgeable in Canadian Law.

While I don't dispute that, I wonder about the need for saying it. Basically your advice tells people in this situation to seek a diversion. Either with or without benefit of counsel. But that's the same advice that serveral us, including non-Canadians, have given in this and similar situations. You added some good advice on the different types of representation. But other than that you repeated advice already given.

[excon]

Here is some advice that is hopefully helpful as apposed to demeaning........ PLEASE just learn from them and NEVER do it again!!!!

Hello squirm:

Uhhhh, I think THAT'S a little demeaning, no? People who come here want advice - not lectures.

excon

[squirm]

Joker123, Once you get to court, if you do not have a lawyer, go to the duty counsel office (show up early, dress nice). It is there that they will tell you whether or not you qualify for diversion. You likely will. If you do the diversion "people" will take you aside and ask you a few questions and ask you to tell them your story. They will decide how much the donation or community service will be. Likely as a first time offender you will be asked to give a charitable donation of double the amount you stole (as I mentioned before) THen you will have to wait until you are called before the judge (may take all day) if you pay the donation that day, this will be your only appearance in court and your charges will be dismissed. I wish you all the best. I am confident you and your sister will be fine.

Duty counsel and other officials will do most of the talking you just say thank you at the end

[ScottGem]

Comments on this post

squirm disagrees: No its more supportive then demeaning.

First, may I call your attention to the guidelines for using the comments feature found here:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/feedba...ure-24951.html
You've given some good advice, but you've only been here a month. Not quite enough time to try putting us down.

[joker123]

OK so I'm going tomorrow for fingerprints, I'm so nervous and scared about everything. squirm, should I bring cash on the court date for the fine if they give me one, to pay it right away so I don't have to reappear in court right? What do you think they will do? I'm sooo scared, does it matter that it was 2 of us, and what do I tell the duty counsel when they ask me my story? Do I just say it was a stupid mistake ? Im so scared, but I have never been in trouble with police before, I'm in university, I'm a good kid same with my sister. Do they take stuff like that into account?

[ScottGem]

We have already answered all these questions. I suggest you read back through the thread.

There is really no need to be scared. As a first offender you can get a diversion and your record will be clean.

[joker123]

OK so for anyone who wants to know what happened if they are in a similar situation. I got there at 930 and it was packed, I put our names on the duty counsel sheet to see the lawyer there for advice and this took all up till 12 and I still didn't get called, so I went into court. As I was sitting there, a lawyer called me to an interview room and said he noticed I had one of those small slips for shoplifting and he said he felt 'bad' for me and he went on to offer me a deal for him to represent me for like $500, and he asked about me an dmy sisters backgrounds what happened, and such. I told him I was in Uni, I work, I have never done this before, and he said it's a shame for us to be punished, and to worry during school and stuff. He then went over what he can do but in the end we declined his services. I went back into the courtroom where I waited and waited, and then out of nowhere the same lawyer went to the women with the papers and asked them to put us up the line because he was going to do his clients now and he added us in at the end, very nice of him to help us out like that, and the judge gave us the Elizabeth Fry Program. Which we then had to proceed outside to the duty counsel and talk to that lawyer. He then told us we will have to donate or do something, we have to call the diversion program place and book an appointment, he mentioned that this will inevitably be our only court visit. He then filled some papers out, and told us he may have time to go back in and finish it before lunch but then lunch came so we had to wait another 1.5 hours or so. Finally at 230 we got back into the courtroom, where we waited some more. We then got called up and the crown signed the diversion program and told us to come back in 2 months again, which confused me since the duty counsel said this will be our only time at court. So I went back to duty counsel and asked him, and he said to just go with the crown. So now me and my sis are going to call the diversion place, set up an appointment, and see what we have to do. The duty counsel lawyer said we won't get community hours, we will most likely weite a letter of apology or donate to charity a sum of $200 for both of us, and he basically said our record will be wiped. The crown didn't take too serious of us, just brushed us aside compared to to others when called up, and the duty counsel guy was very helpful in that he said its not that big a deal. Im just not happy about coming back again in 2 months since the duty counsel convinced me this would be the only court date, but what can you do, it turned out all right, I'm just glad its almost all over, pretty much is. Also the lawyer said to not pay the stores fine, he said in his years of practice he always advised people in my poisition not to pay it, it's a scam, and not one person has reported back to him saying the store sued him for it. So that's my story, very hectic and STRESSFUL day, I had to bus for 2 hrs there and back and wait in line 2 hrs not to mention the courtroom wait, but its what I got do and I did, so I believe everything will be fine now. Hope this helps people who are looking for info on this site, I know I was looking for a story like this when I got caught just to see what exactly happens, anyway, hope this helps, cheers

[ScottGem]

So everything went pretty much as we said it would. The probable reason for the return to court is for the crown to dismiss the charges assuming you have fulfilled the terms of the diversion.

I will say, if someone reads your experience to not take it as exactly what will happen to them. Each province and court is a bit different. You got stuck with a date where there was a crowded calendar.

But your point that the crown didn't take you too seriously is what we were trying to tell you. A minor shoplifting charge with a first time offense is not going to get the attention of the court. They will brush it aside for more important crimes.

[emery]

Thanks for letting everyone know what happened. I think it is really helpful when people actually let others know the outcome as well as it helps others learn from the experience.

[s1976]

Hi There, I had a few questions for you as I am in the same situation with Loablaws. Have you gotten anything in mail from them since the lady said that she will will sending me something to sue me. Also what is the diversion program? Are you on probation... for how long? Can you travel during this time? What did you have to do to get out of this?Community hrs? Can you please help me?I am to go to court in Nov. What happens to your record - does it go clean and also your fingerprints?
Thanks for any HELP!! Please respond in the thread I started here:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/crimin...ed-266295.html

{Mod Note: Please don't piggyback your question on someone else's thread. Anyone wishing to repond to S1976 should follow the link to thethread he started. <>}

[JudyKayTee]

Hi There, I had a few questions for you as I am in the same situation with Loablaws. Have you gotten anything in mail from them since the lady said that she will will sending me something to sue me. Also what is the diversion program ?? Are you on probation ...for how long? Can you travel during this time? What did you have to do to get out of this?Community hrs? Can you please help me?I am to goto court in Nov. What happens to your record - does it go clean and also your fingerprints??
Thanks for any HELP!!!

This should be combined with the 2 other posts - same questions, different threads.

[joker123]

K so now my dumb sister threw out all the papers we got from court, because she didn't want my parents to find them. She said the lady at diversion told her to bring papers to the appointment for diversion, but she said she has our files. Is this going to be a problem?

[ScottGem]

Don't know, but it could be.

[JudyKayTee]

k so now my dumb sister threw out all the papers we got from court, because she didnt want my parents to find them. she said the lady at diversion told her to bring papers to the appointment for diversion, but she said she has our files. Is this going to be a problem?

Your arrest papers are on file with the Court. The diversion program does not have them. I would say, yes, this will be a problem.

[joker123]

Your arrest papers are on file with the Court. The diversion program does not have them. I would say, yes, this will be a problem.

So what should I do? Call court or div and ask, but when my sis called the div the woman said she has our file but to bring our papers anyway.

[JudyKayTee]

so what should i do? call court or div and ask, but when my sis called the div the woman said she has our file but to bring our papers anyways.

If she already has a copy, then I'd just go and explain your copies are destroyed. I don't see that you have any other choice.

Other people have posted that the div office didn't have the papers so apparently this person is on her toes.