[crazytrain]

Every president has bad marks againist him.
It is just this one is a little more noticeable then most.

[kp2171]

As I said... give me two good choices at the voting booth and I'll be thrilled.

The only thing more frustrating to me than the right's inability to support a good, moderate is the left's inability to find someone, anyone to challenge such mediocrity.

The last election was the very worst one I've ever voted in.

[kp2171]

In response to this comment on my first post:

Comments on this post
Debra agrees: Bush is packing the courts with religion-based neo-conservatives who despise liberty and embrace oppression.

*******************************************

While I agree bush is placing justices that have leaned his way on the bench prior to sup. ct. position... ummm... that is his prerogative. The senate only has the task to see if they are fit for the bench from a professional standing. This ideological crap is out of line, whether the nominee is liberal or conservative. It has become such a pathetic grandstanding event. Makes me sad.

Second, as a religious person who tends to try to live and let live... I'm sick of people acting like "God" is a four letter word. People can use religion as an excuse to do terrible things. People can use any excuse to do terrible things. I use religion to ground me, to do social work, to develop spiritually and morally. I'm guessing the people in my congregation have done more good social work in the name of God than an equal number of athiests. I am not bashing athiests... I'm bashing the crap I hear every week about how terrible it is to have God in your life. So, so sad.

I think ones position on abortion, for example, regardless of the stance, does not make one a hater of liberty and one who favors oppression. I'm personally uncomfortable with abortion, but do little about it politically. Ill never vote for a person because of that position. That, I guess, makes me a target for both the far left and right.

It is these extreme left/right views that drive me mad.

You can be against a war and still love your country and support your troops. You can be against federal funding for abortions and still be willing to let the states fight it out for themselves. You can find middle ground on immigration.

This view that conservatives are evil, heartless, freedom haters is as moronic as the view that liberals are wishy-washy panderers without a backbone.

As concerning the justices... remember, only time will tell about their leanings. Once on the bench, they might surprise you with their positions. The positions they held as attorneys early in their career is not the same task as trying to determine the constitutionality of a law.

There. Guess being an independent means you are always frustrated with BOTH sides.

[Debra]

kp2171: Your objection is without merit. Cry about it; deny it. But the truth is self-evident: It is the religion-based neoconservatives who insist upon using the power of the state to impose their morals on others. That's oppression.

[kp2171]

My objection is without merit because it isn't your position.

[cajalat]

Debra: Religion on its own is not the problem. The problem is all of those self proclaimed religious people who do evil things in the name of religion regardless of what religion they follow. Bush and the like are not Christian even if they go to church 7 days a week for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. So we can't really believe for a second that when they mention God that they really know who God is. If they had an once of true faith, they wouldn't be using God's name in vain. On the contrary, they are fanatics and they are no different than the evil they are seeking to destroy.

[kp2171]

What happened to the idea that this nation was a union of states?

If I live in a state where the people decide the laws and I don't agree, I'm happy to move. That's self rule!

Want to live in a state where there's legalized gambling? Take your pick! Prostitution? Go ahead! I'm not against las vegas... but I won't live there.

Ungh. "cry about it. deny it."

This is exactly why I go mad at the voting booth. Call me a guy who generally wants to vote slightly on the conservative side, cannot stand the far right, and insulted by the left bashing my faith.

This extreme crap is maddening. Put the far left and far right in a room and let them go at each other. In the meantime the moderate of both sides could have this country running wonderfully.

[ScottGem]

Ok, folks, lets not get away from the real issue in this thread. Yes Bush is trying to pack the court with judges who's agenda seems to be to curtail freedom. Whatever their religious affiliation or leanings is not as important as their secular agenda.

[kp2171]

and if clinton had appointed two justices the right would be whiny like the left about it. I know.

so the left is the only party that cares about freedom and the right oppresses it.

the POINT was that it was a presidential prerogative to choose the justices. So if choosing only liberal justices makes a good president, then I think that sheds light on the angle of this post.

liberal = freedom = good president
conservative = oppression = bad president

every time I think there is no way I'm going to vote (R) something like this happens and screws it all up.

I'm more than willing to say that this presidency could well prove to be among the worst. The real truth of it will continue to develop for years, as the actions of this administration will be felt for some time to come, regardless of whether you agree with its actions or not.

as for the nominations... ANY president, liberal or conservative, has the RIGHT to nominate justices, regardless of their political views, to the court as long as they are deemed qualified for the bench. And qualified does NOT mean liberal and not conservative leaning, nor the reverse. Ignorant to call the president a failure for this reason.

many, many other reasons to potentially call this administration failed, but the appointments are in line with what the constitution demands.

as for the deficits... it is my understanding that the deficit to gdp ratio isn't so out of line as it was in reagans era (I could very well be wrong here)... my understanding is that the bigger threat is the amount of foreign holdings in us stocks and us land.

[fredg]

Hi,
This thread isn't the only one where the "original question" gets lost. Many have their meanings changed along the way!
Bush's latest "ploy" at better Poll numbers is to stop the Gov't from stockpiling Gas for now in America. His thinking seems to be that less demand will bring down gas prices in the US. It's just another "speech" to try at better ratings. Guess time will tell, but personally, I can't really see gas prices coming down just because the Fed. Gov't isn't stocking it's gas stockpiles!

[NeedKarma]

im guessing the people in my congregation have done more good social work in the name of God than an equal number of athiests.

Well logically your congregation would mention doing their social work in the name of God versus the atheists. I do quite a bit of social/volunteer work and have no need to profess that I'm doing it in the name of any god, I just like helping people and giving back to my community.

[kp2171]

Well logically your congregation would mention doing their social work in the name of God versus the atheists. I do quite a bit of social/volunteer work and have no need to profess that I'm doing it in the name of any god, I just like helping people and giving back to my community.

My point was not the mentioning of God to the people we help vs the athiests mentioning God. Thatd be a silly comparison.

And you missed the point, or I said it wrong about the "in the name of God" reference

When we do much of our service (work we do personally because we believe we are charged with the task morally by God - what I mean by "in the name of") there is actually no evangilism outside the fact that we are from a church and we do some of the programs physically in a church. The inner city kids who get a weekly meal and school tutoring never hear us mention faith. The food service program puts us behind the counter helping feed the poor, but again, there is no bible thumping. In many of the interchurch programs there are steps taken to be careful about how the faith is presented... more lead by example than lead with a sermon

My point, which was poorly stated, was that I'm tired of hearing how those with faith are for oppressing liberty. How being religious, which shapes your views, is a blight upon freedom.

Religious people, just like some agnostics and athiests, do grunt work every month, week, and day to make the world a better place. Ever read about the christian aid workers who are kidnapped in iraq? The same people in our congregation who spend summers building houses for the poor in mexico are often also involved in local building like habitat for humanity.

My point was never to sit and brag about this... it is to say these things are happening, everyday around you. The mistakes of a political leader who has faith should not be laid upon others who also believe in God. And simply being a person of faith should not bar you from public service, as in the case of the supreme court. A person can have faith and can still determine whether laws are written in the spirit of the constitution.

[NeedKarma]

my point, which was poorly stated, was that im tired of hearing how those with faith are for oppressing liberty. how being religious, which shapes your views, is a blight upon freedom.

Oh OK, then it was poorly stated. I really don't see a whole lot of people who believe that "those with faith are for oppressing liberty" or "being religious is a blight upon freedom". I must be hanging with a better crowd. :)

[magprob]

I wish someone would give him a BJ so we could impeach him! That seems to be the only way to impeach a prisident these days.

[magprob]

Willfully blind.

[magprob]

There are two different Gods. It just depends on who you are asking.

[magprob]

The fact remains, the spoiled brat kid was left in charge of the candy store and he IS stuffing his pockets full. We can all agree that he has lied to us... that's a fact. There are two kinds of people I hate with a passion, liars and thiefs. Our president is both. That pains me to come to that conclusion, let alone say it in public but that is a fact. We are being cheated at the gas pump and my small business suffers from it... as so many do. We are being cheated at the grocery store and everywhere else we buy anything to survive. The truckers that haul it there are being cheated so we pay for that. All the while, being hearded into a less free and self reliant society in which we are completely reliant upon "them." Go try to start your own gas and oil company. HA HA HA, you will never do it. Try to make it at farming. Corporate America farm conglomerations have that in the bag. If you control the food supply, you control the world! They are going to put micro chips in small farm chickens and other animals so you can't raise you own food! The cost will be prohibitive. Did you know that the Department of Agriculture has their own satilites? The Avian flu is the reason. A flu strain that has been mutated in laboratories with a particular intrest in such things! It is just beginning folks. You isn't seen nothing yet. It is to late. They have complete control over your life and it will only get tighter. The master plan is in motion and while you were standing in line to buy the next high tech gadget, they were stealing everything. Your argument here shows that you have rights. The right to speak your mind. SO WHAT! You have no right to change the terrible path you are heading down. That has been set for you. So keep babbling about how you don't like this or that. If you get to loud and rowdy, remember, they have tanks, bombs and jets that will level your hideout in 7 minutes. You have lost your power to do anything about it because you woke up too late. You woke up when, and only when, it affected your own pocket book and your comfey little life. That makes you no better than them. That makes you deserving of the tribulation you WILL experience soon. :mad:

[talaniman]

Thanks for clearing that up . I thought for sure we were already going through tribulation! Oh no YOU mean it gets worse?:cool: :eek:

[mr.yet]

An article is agree with!

Bush: Worst President Ever?

By Stephen Pizzo, News for Real. Posted May 20, 2005.


Herbert Hoover may have triggered the Great Depression, but he didn't invade another nation on false pretenses, authorize torture of prisoners, or try to stack the courts.

For the record, I don't like George Bush. And I don't like most of the people who work for George Bush. So, diehard Republicans can just brush aside my remarks as so much partisan blather.

But by now I suppose very few diehard Republicans ever read what I write. So do me a favor -- e-mail this to the diehards in your family and circle of friends. Ask them to tell me why I am wrong about this:

George Bush is the worst president of the United States of America, ever. Hands down.

And here are just a few reasons I believe that statement is true.

America the Disgraced

President Bush's actions and policies have destroyed America's image as a nation that adheres to a set of core values, such as the rule of law, humane treatment of prisoners, presumed innocence, trial by jury and respect for international laws.

How do I know this? Because the world is telling us so, whenever we care enough to ask.


Positive views of the U.S. in Russia have risen 11 points in the past year. But U.S. favorability ratings in France and Germany are somewhat lower than last year and there has been a larger decline in Great Britain (58 percent now, 70 percent last year). Young people in Great Britain, France, and Germany have more negative views of America than do people in other age groups. An important factor in world opinion about America is the perception that the U.S. acts internationally without taking account of the interests of other nations. Large majorities in every nation surveyed believe that America pays little or no attention to their country's interests in making its foreign policy decisions. This opinion is most prevalent in France (84 percent), Turkey (79 percent) and Jordan (77 percent), but even in Great Britain 61 percent say the U.S. pays little or no attention to British interests.

Nice going George. Even Richard Nixon couldn't tarnish America's image that much.

George's Vietnam

Then there's the war that is largely responsible for that drop in our international image. President Bush really screwed this one up. First, everyone not drinking the neocon Kool-Aid tried to warn George not to pull that trigger. Then Army chief of staff, Gen. Shinseki, warned Bush that a war in Iraq would not be the "cake walk" his neocon Rasputin, Paul Wolfowitz, promised. Instead, he warned, we would need a lot of troops in Iraq for long time. For that piece of advice he was first publicly embarrassed by his boss then shown the door, according to The New York Times:


At a Pentagon news conference neither Mr. Rumsfeld nor Mr. Wolfowitz mentioned Gen. Shinseki, the Army chief of staff, by name. But both men were clearly irritated at the general's suggestion that a post-war Iraq might require many more forces than the 100,000 American troops and the tens of thousands of allied forces that are also expected to join a reconstruction effort. "The idea that it would take several hundred thousand U.S. forces I think is far off the mark," Mr. Rumsfeld said.

That was 2003. Here's a story from today's paper.


BAGHDAD, Iraq, May 19 - American military commanders in Baghdad and Washington gave a sobering new assessment on Wednesday of the war in Iraq.. . In interviews and briefings this week, some of the generals pulled back from recent suggestions, some by the same officers, that positive trends in Iraq could allow a major draw-down in the 138,000 American troops late this year or early in 2006. One officer suggested Wednesday that American military involvement could last "many years."

Gee. Who saw that coming?

So, thanks to George W. Bush and the handful of Neocon nuts you listen to. Now we are stuck in another Vietnam-type war thousands of miles from home. All the Vietnam trappings are here for anyone who cares to notice -- indigenous insurgents, driven by a fanatical ideology, supported and supplied by "spoiler" nation-states with their own anti-U.S. agendas, thousands of dead civilians, American soldiers dying by the gross week in and week out, with no end in sight.

Nice going, George. Maybe because you skipped out on the Vietnam War you didn't know this could happen. Or maybe you really are as dumb as common road gravel.


link to; posting:
AlterNet: Bush: Worst President Ever?

[talaniman]

He can't be too dumb since he has made billions of dollars disappear/appear into the pockets of his associates and friends.:cool: :mad: