[vincestyle]

If Jesus is not God, but a being created by God, and thus part of creation, how does that affect justification, atonement, and salvation?

[Starman]

Well, since the question is not posted as requiring an answer from the trinitarian viewpoint I will provide the unitarian viewpoint.


It has absolutely no effect on the value of the ransom sacrifice since all that was needed in order to redeem mankind was the death of a perfect blameless man as Adam was before he sinned. The death of a demigod or a God-man was unnecessary for redemption. That's why Jesus is called the last Adam, because he was physically Adam's equivalent.



1 Corinthians 15:44-46

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Now if Adam would have been half man half God, then we would have lost more than perfect human life and would have needed a demigod to die for us. But such was not the case. The article found at the site link provided explains it in detail.

BiblicalUnitarian.com - Christianity 101: Two Adams
Jesus Christ is the Last Adam, a man like Adam who could undo what Adam did. The Last... relationship between the "first Adam" and the "Last Adam." Even modern biblical...
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/mod...rticle&sid=163

BTW
Being part of creation is not a defect. The angels are part of God's creation and are holy.

Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Matthew 25:31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Heaven is part of God's creation and is the holy abode of God.

I'd also like to make clear that I am in no way judging anyone's relationship with the creator based on their individual understanding of these matters.

[fredg]

Hi,
Salvation is:
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believith in Him......."

[magprob]

Starman, Could the reference made to Jesus and Adam also be along the lines that Adam illustrates a separation from GOD, which is in effect "Hell". Jesus represents the path back to GOD or "Heaven.":confused:

[RickJ]

If Jesus is not God, but a being created by God, and thus part of creation, how does that affect justification, atonement, and salvation?

In my opinion, this cannot really be answered. If Jesus were a created being, then nearly every basic tenet of Christianity would have to be not just re-written, bu thrown out.

If a significant teaching such as the Deity of Christ were shown to be wrong, then any and all teachings of Christianity should be questioned.

[Starman]

Imho, this cannot really be answered. If Jesus were a created being, then nearly every basic tenet of Christianity would have to be not just re-written, bu thrown out.

If a significant teaching such as the Diety of Christ were shown to be wrong, then any and all teachings of Christianity should be questioned.

From a trinitarian viewpoint that would be so, but not from a unitarian viewpoint. Trinitarians are not the only Christians. Not all Christians accepted the Catholic Church's decision of the Council of Nicene at that time it was issued and not all Christians accept it now.

BTW
It would be just as easy for Unitarians to call trinitarians non-Christians.
But it's wiser to leave that kind of conclusion in the hands of God.
There is much more involved in being a Christian than merely a set of beliefs.

[Starman]

Starman, Could the reference made to Jesus and Adam also be along the lines that Adam illustrates a separation from GOD, which is in effect "Hell". Jesus represents the path back to GOD or "Heaven.":confused:

Some have perhaps chosen to view it that way.
Actually, I do agree that Adam cast us away from God and Jesus leads us back. But in addition to this, I choose to accept the explanation that God followed the rule of like for like expressed in the Mosaic law and applied it legally to mankind's situation which required a perfect human life be paid for a perfect human life lost.

Exodus 21:24
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Leviticus 24:20
Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.


So in harmony with this divine principle, a perfect human life had to be given in payment for a perfect human life lost.


BTW
The death of Jesus was also the death of his potential offspring.

[31pumpkin]

Vincestyle -

By the way you worded your question I would have to say that it doesn't affect or change anything regarding salvation, forgiveness (atonement) but maybe judgment, depending on the individual on judgment day. Jesus always was also. That is what is meant when the Bible says- AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH.
There is only the HOLY TRINITY in my opinion. Nothing else... :eek:

[Starman]

John 7:49
But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. KJV

As long as we don't go around with upturned noses giving the cold shoulder to those we feel don't see things exactly our way and classifying them as eternally damned, then we are OK. It's when one believer in redemption based on Jesus' sacrifice looks down on another who also has faith in Jesus ransom sacrifice and assumes the status of judge that a sin is committed.

This is not to say that we shouldn't have an opinion concerning beliefs and conduct. Of course we should and we are entitled to our opinion. For example, we have every right to consider a certain denomination which we feel deviates significantly from the true Christian teachings as not being a genuine Christian organization, as a previous poster implies about those holding the Unitarian view, or as many Protestants feel about Catholicism and some Catholics feel about Protestantism. What we don't have a right to do is to assume that based on this we know the eternal fate of all Catholics and all Protestants and all Jews any member of any other religious group--for that matter simply because they are presently members of a certain organization or presently hold certain beliefs we feel are wrong. Only God is qualified to determine who is worthy of eternal life or not or who has the needed spiritual potential if given the proper opportunity under different circumstances of serving him for eternity.

BTW
Those who describe God as a mindless machine of destruction which mows down all those in its way simply based on denominational membership are actually defaming God's character by misrepresenting him as unjust.

[Ahmadiyya]

The real question is why do people think The Prophet Isa(jesus) is not god?And there are real only 2 answers:
1. The bible contradicts its self so how can you trust what is in it.
2. The Prophet Isa(jesus) never told ANYONE that he is god, matter of fact he prayed to god to take away this burden!
now to answer your question posted is that no one has to die for our sins to be forgiven if that was the case then every like 100 years "a son of god" would have to die cause we sin every second of the day, the bible say thy shall not kill, but every time you breath in a breath of air you are killing cells in the air. The bible is a holy book but it was a holy book when it was in its original form! Now it is a book that has lies in it.

[Starman]

The real question is why do people think The Prophet Isa(jesus) is not god?And there are real only 2 answers:
1. The bible contradicts its self so how can you trust what is in it.
2. The Prophet Isa(jesus) never told ANYONE that he is god, matter of fact he prayed to god to take away this burden!
now to answer your question posted is that no one has to die for our sins to be forgiven if that was the case then every like 100 years "a son of god" would have to die cause we sin every second of the day, the bible say thy shall not kill, but every time you breath in a breath of air you are killing cells in the air. The bible is a holy book but it was a holy book when it was in its original form! now it is a book that has lies in it.

Well, I guess we agree in one area but disagree in another since I don't consider Jesus to be simply a mere prophet. Neither did John the baptist.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Neither did the Apostle Peter:

Matthew 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Neither did the Apostle John:


John 17:3 (KJV)
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


About the sins you mention, Jesus' sacrifice paid for them once and for all times for those who avail themselves of it.


Romans 6:9-11
New King James Version (NKJV)
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all;...

So there is absolutely no need for a repetition.


BTW
The Muslims I have encountered have always spoken of the Bible in a respectful way and always say respectful things before mentioning the name of Jesus. Why do you differ in this area?

[RickJ]

The Bible and the Qur'an are similar in that people who do not understand them can come up with a litany of apparent contradictions.

For example, I know well that most Islams are taught that only followers of Islam are admitted to heaven, yet the Qur'an teaches otherwise:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran...size=First+100

I do not cite this to bring an argument; as I can guess that you will have some explanatation for this apparent contradiction... but do you see the point?

[talaniman]

I don't know if Jesus was a prophet, son of God, or what. But you'd have to be a fool not to acknowledge the profound effect he has had on those that follow him and on history itself. 2000 years after his death he still changes lives for the better and influences millions of followers. No matter what religion you belong to or whether you believe the bible or not you have to be in awe of someone who would die rather than follow the party line of the day and still find it in himself to forgive those who persecuted Him. Whether you believe or not there is a message in his story we all need to pay attention to.:cool:

[fitnahpolice]

Jesus (peace be upon him) was one the greatest of all Prophets and Messengers sent by God to guide mankind. Muslims believe in his miracle birth, his healing the blind and the leper and his giving life to the dead with God's permission. But Jesus never claimed divinity for himself, i.e. said I am God or worship me; for that would be against his mission and a blasphemy unto God.

Jesus was raised up by Allah and just like the Christians, muslims believe that he will return before the end of time. He will be a proof against the divinity ascribed to him as described so eloquently in the Qur'an, Chapter 5:

116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All­Mighty, the All­Wise."

119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

[yor1]

If Jesus is not God, but a being created by God, and thus part of creation, how does that affect justification, atonement, and salvation?

Justification (made innocent) Atonement (suffering and death for sin) salvation (freedom from sin and enpowerment for life).. Was arranged and bought about by God by means of Jesus life and suffering and death... He was an innocent sacrifice that by faith we have our sins removed... The key to this is by grace( Gods loving provision) and by way of faith.. if God does not require that Jesus be Himself but rather represent and image God then we need to recognize that His suffering and death is what is needful.. We are made innocent by faith in his suffering and death and equipt to live according to Gods Will and by his Guidance...
The only Begotten son( Born son) Monogenes is the means of salvation from Sin. We are saved from our a sins by the blood( death) of Jesus by faith.. We are not saved because he is God but by faith.. Anything that God offers to be accepted by faith will bring about what he intends for it if accepted by faith/ trust in Gods provision..
The jews understood that the lamb of God did not appease God it was suppose to be the offering of the repentant heart. Jesus is the offering of our repentant heart when knowingly we recognize he took our death as an innocent representative... Like Adam who bought death by representative headship of the human race.. Jesus becomes the head of the new Man to those who believe..

[fitnahpolice]

Definition of Monotheism or The Touchstone of Theology:

1. Say: "He is Allâh, (the) One.

2. "Allâh, The Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).

3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten;

4. "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." [Holy Quran, 112:1-4]

As far as atonement is concerned, it is clearly mentioned in the Quran in no uncertain terms:

‘And no bearer of burdens will bear the burden of another. And if a heavily laden soul calls (another) to (carry some of) its load, nothing of it will be carried, even if he should be a close relative. You can only warn those who fear their Lord unseen and have established prayer. And whoever purifies himself only purifies himself for (the benefit of) his soul. And to God is the (final) destination’ [Holy Quran, 35:18]

And elsewhere, we read:

‘God does not charge a soul except (with that within) its capacity. It will have (the consequence of) what (good) it has gained, and it will bear (the consequence of) what (evil) it has earned’ [Holy Quran, 2:286]

So salvation is not in just having 'faith' but salvation is achieved by believing in God with the correct creed as Jesus (peace be upon him) did, worshipping God as Jesus did and believing in the glad-tidings that Jesus gave of the coming of the last messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him)!

[cassini]

When jesus return to earth we can asked directly to jesus what is the reality. But one thing is sure that the bible prophecy is now happening. Many messengers, prophets had came to this world and lived. But any of them didn't able to a second coming to the earth. Only that credit goes to jesus. That means jesus is the son of god.

[fitnahpolice]

when jesus return to earth we can asked directly to jesus what is the reality. but one thing is sure that the bible prophecy is now happening. many messengers, prophets had came to this world and lived. but any of them didn,t able to a second coming to the earth. only that credit goes to jesus. that means jesus is the son of god.

Yes, as I've mentioned earlier, Muslims do believe in the return of Jesus. In fact a muslim's faith is incomplete if he/she denies the second coming. But that in now way implies that Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has any share in divinity!

In fact, Jesus will return to prove exactly the opposite. The Holy Quran, Chapter 5:

116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All­Mighty, the All­Wise."

119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

[yor1]

Yes, as I've mentioned earlier, Muslims do believe in the return of Jesus. Infact a muslim's faith is incomplete if he/she denies the second coming. But that in now way implies that Jesus (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) has any share in divinity!

Infact, Jesus will return to prove exactly the opposite. The Holy Quran, Chapter 5:

116. And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.

117. "Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and warning to the Christians of the whole world).

118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All­Mighty, the All­Wise."

119. Allâh will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein forever. Allâh is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success (Paradise).

120. To Allâh belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things.

Believing is faith...
It's the taking of what God gives as informative and trusting that what is given is true..
That requires the right information of course..
But One cannot dismiss the information Given in the Good news that comes because of Jesus the Messiah..
He is the propitiation, The lamb that takes away sin.. the burden of sin bearer... As he is reported saying of Himself.. No man comes to the Father but because of Him( Jesus)..
No sin stained individual can stand in the presence of the Almighty holy God His Awe not only overwhelms but his light exposes the sin of the heart..
it's the one whom God has put forward to take from the sinner the guilt and shame that is exposed in Gods light.. This is where faith comes in..
The sin remains unless one believes God and His message of Grace in Jesus.. By trusting God that the Sin is paid for in Jesus' death He( God) alone implants the truth of freedom from sin.. All He requires is that we believe him , Trust him and thereby exercise faith in Him to receive that freedom.

Now the correct creed has freedom been that Jesus died for the sins of the world.. Its how that death is received that dictates its value..

If you do not believe there is a sin bearer.. the lamb sent by God to die in the place of all who will accept Him( Jesus) as the master and head and leader of a new race, a new people, a new creation...
The old has passed away behold I make all things new( As given in the bible as spoken by Jesus.. )
We all know where we have sinned.. its only that sin that bars our way into a living relationship with the eternal God.. BUt while that stain of sin remains a part of our lives we will remain separated from God.. " Your sins have made a separation between you and your God, your sins have hidden his face from you.. But YhVH has laid on Him( Jesus) the iniquity of us all..
No maybe its not logical according to some rules..Maybe its counted as unjust..But God knew from the beginning that death by sin would lead to eternal separation from Him and so knowing enacted a plan to provide restoration..We are reconciled to God by the death of His son( Jesus)Much more being reconciled we shall be saved by his life..That is in the Messiah God was reconciling the world to himself not counting their sin against them. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness from God..We implore you then on behalf of The messiah "BE reconciled to God"
It is hoped that all would fear the Lord and turn away from sin and be reconciled.. But alas not all do fear the Lord... Not sure how you think that one can purify himself... We are to to keep ourselves unstained from the world.. but what happens when one fails to fulfill the known lifestyle.. what happens when one is stained by the world... Apart from Jesus there remains a fearful expectation of eternal judgement.. Not even God in his forgiving heart can alter his image in man.. Sin alters Gods image in man and as far as I have seen there remains only one way out of that altered image. And that is to die.. God has provided a way to die that does not bring ABOUT THE FOLLOWING JUDGEMENT... He says to believe and have faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus and by so doing you are geared to be an inheritor of eternal life..

[yor1]

Imho, this cannot really be answered. If Jesus were a created being, then nearly every basic tenet of Christianity would have to be not just re-written, bu thrown out.

If a significant teaching such as the Diety of Christ were shown to be wrong, then any and all teachings of Christianity should be questioned.

I would suggest not..
There are many rationals as to what is accomplished on the cross and how..
Substitution
Sacrifice
Judicial
Representative
throwing out any one or all of these theories does not do away with what Saves from sin
Believing God and making Jesus the ruler over ones life.. " if you declare Jesus as Lord and believe that The God raised him from the Dead you shall be saved..."
The scriptures do not say you have to believe any of the theories of salvation...
Jesus dies for you..
His death is something Paul says we identify with and in so doing we die with him and raise with him.
Our old man is dead..
Our new life begins..
Its based upon faith, faith in The God.. not faith or belief in some man structured theory..
The Good news was very simple its no longer so..
The convictor and convincer of these truths is The one true God...
Those that believe Him and in the redemptive work accomplished through the life death and resurrection of the Son are the beneficiaries... Not because they understand the complexities of theology but because they are convinced that Jesus Death is their death...
If we died with him we shall also live with him... He has died to put away sin.. not because there is some eternal quality to his life but because God has declared it and we have believed it.. Not because we are Wise philosophers or powerful kings but because HE has made it simple to confound the wise and weak to thwart the strong and powerful..
The foolishness of The God is wiser than men and the weakness of God more powerful than man.. The foolishness of the cross.. Let us not forget that the cross foolishness to the wise..

I can't say I agree with all the thoughts of the unitarian... but they can no more turn over the truth of the Gospel( good news) than any one church that exists today..
Jesus Died and its by faith in that provision as led by the one true God that brings redemption.. As does believing that the God raised him up from death.. and exalted him to his own right hand and gave him all power and all authority.. The one we now serve until he himself sets all at the foot of The Gods throne...


The Bible does not ask any to believe that Jesus is an uncreated being.. thats a conclusion made by men..
It does in places seem to suggest that he existed before he was made man.. But even that is from limited texts and theologically inclined translations..
I much prefer to hold to that which is stated..
He is the almighty God's Anoited one sent by The one true God to redeem and reconcile the world to The God himself..
This is the premise of all sermons preached and presented in the scriptures and Jesus himself never attempt to exalt Jesus above anything but being Gods servant..

I know that our English and probably most translated text seem to show varied ideas that present Jesus as being beyond human. But in reality he could not have accomplished redemption unless he were totally human. For we all know that for death to have value the one dying must indeed be able to die.. As God cannot die it would be impossible for the one called Jesus to be God..