[sassyT]

Jesus is God!
John 1vs 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This Chapter tells us Plainly that Jesus IS God And He has always existed with God and Holy Spirit from the Beginning. Jesus is was Not created He is God and everything was Created By Him and Through Him.

[sassyT]

Jesus (peace be upon him) was one the greatest of all Prophets and Messengers sent by God to guide mankind. Muslims believe in his miracle birth, his healing the blind and the leper and his giving life to the dead with God's permission. But Jesus never claimed divinity for himself, i.e. said I am God or worship me; for that would be against his mission and a blasphemy unto God.

This is Incorrect Because Jesus Did Claim to be God. That is the reason why he was crusified because the Jewish Scibes and Pharosies accused Him of Blasphamy.

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (John 14:6-9)

And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." (John 12:44-46)

"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)

[yor1]

It would be incorrect to suggest that Jesus died because he claimed to be The God.
That's not the reason the bible gives as to why they handed him over to Pilot or why they themselves claimed he was to die.
That conclusion is not represented in scripture.
The scriptures are clear
He died as the son of the God...
It is as the son of the God that he comes to us.. He is likened to Adam in being the second Adam... inaugurating the new covenant.. It as as the son of The God that he goes to the Cross..
And clearly there is no claim that there exists a tri fold God.. He speaks of the one true God and you read the English version, translated according to a theological rational.. When the Scriptures speak of The word they speak of Gods expressed thought, the logos.. And then goes on to state that it is by the expressed thought of God that all things are created..
The gender distinction of "He" does not exist in the Greek in the same way it is used in the English, and the application of the word becoming flesh is clearly not defining Jesus as being God but that Gods "expressed thought" becomes flesh... That Jesus himself is the very image of the invisible God...
That to see Him is to see the God, the Father of all life..
We are, according to scripture, children of God. Not brothers to God... We are never called Jesus children but Brethren to him, Like him a child of The God...
So In reality its how we have learnt to apply the lessons of scripture and what in fact we see in them , more than what was actually meant..
We live today under 1700 years of teaching that says that Jesus is God himself.. we have also been told that not to believe that God is a trinity excludes us from the household of faith..
But the scriptures never in fact say this..
They require a belief in the life and death and resurrection of the only Born son of The God.. By requiring a belief beyond the simple facts and guidelines of scripture, By erecting walls that prohibit inclusion because of men ordained ideas we are rejecting people from the kingdom not inviting them in.

You will find that nothing in scripture requires Jesus to be God in order for him to be The Gods provision for sin and life.. All that is ultimately required is faith in God because of the Lord Jesus... To believe that we died with his representative death and are raised to newness of life in his resurrection.. The theological whys andwherefores are not a requirement.
If we died with him we shall also live with him..
We are baptized into his death.. and raised to newness of life..
He came by water and the blood
on our behalf.. He is lifted in order to draw all men unto him..
As the children of Israel had faith in the saving power of God when looking to the bronze serpent on the pole , so we when looking unto him are by faith partakers of death to the old man and life in the spirit..
These are all themes of the NEW testament.. The theology created by man that has surrounded the church has done more harm that good. We should be looking for ways to include people in the results of the Cross not exclude..

[Donna Mae]

talaniman-
That was such a good answer.

[yor1]

Vincestyle -

By the way you worded your question I would have to say that it doesn't affect or change anything regarding salvation, forgiveness (atonement) but maybe judgment, depending on the individual on judgment day. Jesus always was also. That is what is meant when the Bible says- AND THE WORD BECAME FLESH.
There is only the HOLY TRINITY in my opinion. Nothing else....:eek:

Atonement is not forgiveness.. Its much more than forgivenesss. Forgiveness is what Got offers out of Himself and that does not require atonement.. If one were in fact to read the scriptures one would find that God forgives anyone who turns from Their sins... But our salvation from sin requires much more than Gods forgiveness.If it only required The Gods forgiveness then all could easily be reconciled without the death of Jesus..
Gods desire and willingness to forgive is the movement behind the means of reconciliation not the result of..
Salvation from sin is the result of believing God.. much like the Israelites believed God when looking to the bronze serpant.. The serpant on the pole carried no power in itself. But belief in God bought the promised result.. Later the people eventually began to worship the means of faith(The serpant on the pole)instead of God and received Gods wrath..
Likewise the lambs blood on the lintle in Egypt had no power to preserve the firstborn and the Angel of death pass over.. it was the demonstration of trust in Gods word that provided the passing over..
And like Abraham being considered righteous was not the result of any other action but believing the God.. Abraham believed God and it was acounted to him as Innocence..
Our salvation from sin and reconciliation to God comes because we declare Jesus to be master of our lives and believe God Actually raised him from death..

Does God forgive? Of course He does but His forgiveness is not the result of our faith in Him and in Christ... The word is remission of sins and that invloves the removal or the taking away or the covering of our sins..
So Atonement is not at all limited , if even representative of forgiveness...

[sassyT]

Yor1 I think you are missing the Point of John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.


It talks about the Word being with God, the Word was GOD and was there in the Beginning with God. Clearly the Word here is personified and if you read further to verse 14 it clarifies why John personifies the Word and it turnes out the Word is Jesus. The Word became Flesh.
So the Word was God, and Jesus WAS God and has always been there with God the father from the Beginning. Nothing was made with out HIM.

The Prophet Isaiah also prophesied that Christ is God.

Isaiah 9vs 6
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

This Verse from the Old testament clearly establishes Christ as God.
"His Kingdom" denotes Kingship
"Judgement" Shows Jesus will be Judge and only God can Judge. Jesus IS God.

[yor1]

Yor1 i think you are missing the Point of John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.


It talks about the Word being with God, the Word was GOD and was there in the Beginning with God. Clearly the Word here is personified and if you read further to verse 14 it clarifies why John personifies the Word and it turnes out the Word is Jesus. The Word became Flesh.
So the Word was God, and Jesus WAS God and has always been there with God the father from the Begining. Nothing was made with out HIM.

The Prophet Isaiah also prophesied that Christ is God.

Isaiah 9vs 6
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

This Verse from the Old testament clearly establishes Christ as God.
"His Kingdom" denotes Kingship
"Judgement" Shows Jesus will be Judge and only God can Judge. Jesus IS God.

Sorry Sassy but these are interpretive renditions of the text you use..
John 1 and its point is not as much a rendition of deity but what Christ was to us..
The Isaiah
Text is just one rendition which in the Hebrew does not read so king James as most like it read..
" wonderful in council is the mighty one the father of eternity and ruler of peace"
You will find that no New testament scholar uses this text to convey a sense of deity when directed at Christ..
Likewise the Matt text of " he shall be called immanuel" does not actually use the word that we use in English when defining the name." which means the mighty one is with us"
Not unlike Hebrew the Greek uses god differently from us.. Elohim meaning mighty one used of angels and kings and judges as well as of The Almighty..
In Greek god is used of others besides The Almighty and most times when referring to the Almighty uses the definite article' THE" sometimes the use of the greek word "Theos" is actually being used as an adjective..
The Jehova witness stance on John 1
The Word was God
they render
the word was a God
But Sharps rule as orthodox christian scholar says that the line should be read in structure different from the way it actually is..
The actual Greek reads
a god is the logos
The use most make of the text today is from Greek philosophic form.The Logos being the rational being and thereby translate the word Logos as a personal being..
But in fact the word logos is a masculine greek word and carries with it like in French masculine words a masculine ending..But its supporting text reverts to standard language and can be rendered like most neuter words
"IT"
So what is the point???
that Our present reading of John 1 is to infer that the writer is making a person out of the term LOGOS" 'the expressed thought" And that this is Johns point. but I do not believe that he is in fact doing this as the use of the names from the oT are not identifying the individual who carries them but are identifying the God the represent.
Immanuel was the name of an individual of the OT carried over to Jesus by Matthew..
The word becoming flesh and dwelling among us is exactly what Jesus did ..He became Gods word in Human form...but to claim this means that he himself was God is beyond the text..God in these last days has spoken to us by way of his son "according to Hebrews"
But it is still God who speaks who's word we are hearing through the image of the invisible..
And human theology that determines anything beyond the scriptures as the church of antiquity has done, takes us outside of the revealed truth and into human meandering..
Jesus is the son of God born of Mary..Who lived and died..No true od that I have ever come to understand could possibly die..God is eternal and is as the Scriptures say.The one true God..Any inheritance that Jesus gains or we gain as descending from God is not a declaration of his deity but of his worth..
Hence we are born of God not because of the deity of Jesus but because of the promise of God accepted by faith..The religious wherefores of theology do not change the simplicity of the Good news..
We are reconciled to God by the one Man Jesus The anoited of God..
To change the Gospel and require that any or all believe him to be God himself is to change the Gospel..No one was ever asked to believe this when any sermon was preached by the apostles..ever..
This being the case it makes very suspect any rendering that is made that The John text is declaring the deity of Christ and not just his calling as Gods perfect representative upon the earth.. the Mediator of a New covenant the mediator between God and man.
If indeed Jesus is God then the Catholics are correct we need a mediator between us and him before we can have a mediation between us the Father..
But as the scriptures say
it is the man Jesus that reconciles us to God..
The text " God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself...
Is not speaking of Jesus as himself but God as himself..
Jesus reconciles us to God not himself.. He is the means of reconciliation the one we are reconciled to..
So when reading any text one must be guided by the realities of the gospel not the theological pretexts..
Jesus is the expressed thought of god manifest.. why? Because he is subject in totality to the Almighty and thereby as he himself says.. These are not my words but the words of him that sent me..
To then conclude that he is both the one being sent and the one sending kind of undermines the whole framework of the Gospel.. As God he would be included as the sender and not as some suppose the other members of the godhead send him as if he is not a part of that sending also undermines the idea of this trinity concept that is presented that is beyond the understanding of man..

[sassyT]

Yor1

The text is simple and I think you are the one who is creating your own interpretation. Even if we take away the "He" it is still clear the Jesus is the word and therefore is God because it says the word was God. John makes it clear in verse 14 that the word is Jesus. So if the word is Jesus and the Word is God then Jesus IS GOD.

It simply says:
In the Beginning was the word
The word was always there in the Beginning with GOD
All things were Made through the word
With out the word nothing was made
In the Word was the Light of men
Darkness could not comprehend the word
The word was GOD
The word became flesh
The word dewelt among us
The word's Glory was the only one begotten of the Father.

So Because John tells us the word Became Flesh and dwelt among us that immediately tells us that the word is Jesus.
So because john has revealed who the word is we can replace "the Word" with "Jesus" in this verse.

In the beginning was the Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. 2 Jesus was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Jesus, and without Jesus nothing was made that was made. 4 In Jesus was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend Jesus.

14. And Jesus became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

[sassyT]

Yor1
This is the Hebrew translation of Isaiah 9 vs 6
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;(councelor, Mighty God, Price of Peace)

7 That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.
Jewish Publication Society Tanakh (1917)

This verse is from Jewish translation and it is evident that the Child that is Given has Deity. "His Kingdom" denotes King ship.

[Onan]

Jesus is God!
John 1vs 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[a] it.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

This Chapter tells us Plainly that Jesus IS God And He has always existed with God and Holy Spirit from the Beginning. Jesus is was Not created He is God and everything was Created By Him and Through Him.

If Jesus was God, who sacrificed their only son for our sins? If Jesus is God then why do we have passeges in the Bible of Jesus praying to God? Why did Jesus ask God "why hast thou forsaken me" if he willingly went to the cross for our sins? How is it even a sacrifice if he went into it knowing he would rise from the dead/of if God knew his son would rise from the dead?

[Galveston1]

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(KJV)

Is there any other way to interept this other than co-existence with The Father? I think Jesus knows who He is. He is God the Son who laid aside His attributes of deity to be born as a man, our kinsman redeemer as pictured in the O.T. Every aspect of His ministry was directed and empowered by the third Party, God the Holy Ghost.

[De Maria]

If Jesus is not God, but a being created by God, and thus part of creation, how does that affect justification, atonement, and salvation?

I firmly believe that Jesus is God. But since we are speculating, I guess God could have saved us to any degree He wanted. And if He willed that Jesus were mere man and not God and Man, then we could have been saved to the degree from which we had fallen.

Instead of eternity in Heaven and participating in the Divine Nature,

2 Peter 1
4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world.

We could have been saved to eternity in the Garden of Eden and participation in the earth nature.

1 Corinthians 15
47 The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly.



Sincerely,

De Maria

[sassyT]

If Jesus was God, who sacrificed their only son for our sins?? If Jesus is God then why do we have passeges in the Bible of Jesus praying to God?? Why did Jesus ask God "why hast thou forsaken me" if he willingly went to the cross for our sins?? How is it even a sacrifice if he went into it knowing he would rise from the dead/of if God knew his son would rise from the dead??

It is ONE God that consists of 3 persons. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Your Human mind will find this hard to comprehend.

[Onan]

It is ONE God that consists of 3 persons. God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Your Human mind will find this hard to comprehend.

You do know this go's against everything God told the children of Israel right?

In the OT there was only one God. Demi Gods and Gods in human form were pagan ideas. The Jews were warned about these pagan beliefs all through the OT.

This is the Hebrew translation of Isaiah 9 vs 6
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;(councelor, Mighty God, Price of Peace)

The actual Hebrew Tanakh reads: “For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us and authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God”

In an attempt to insert a Jesus prophecy, the KJV changed the tense from the present to the future, making it, “A child is born, a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God”.

The kicker? In Hebrew Hezekiah means "the mighty god". So the verse you just quoted up there was about king Hezekiah, not about Jesus.

[sassyT]

You do know this go's against everything God told the children of Israel right??
In the OT there was only one God. Demi Gods and Gods in human form were pagan ideas. The Jews were warned about these pagan beliefs all through the OT.
The actual Hebrew Tanakh reads: “For a child has been born to us, a son has been given us and authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named “The Mighty God”
In an attempt to insert a Jesus prophecy, the KJV changed the tense from the present to the future, making it, “A child is born, a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God”.
The kicker?? In Hebrew Hezekiah means "the mighty god". So the verse you just quoted up there was about king Hezekiah, not about Jesus.

Onan, God in many instances through the prophesies actually told the Children of Israel to expect a messiah(Jesus) who will have an everlasting Kingdom of Rule. So no, it does not go against anything.
The translation I quoted above was from the Jewish Publication Society Tanakh (1917) So even if we change the tenses, there are many instances in which Isaiah uses the past tense when giving prophesy so that is an irrelevant argument.

Yes, Hezekiah was a better man than Ahaz; Hezekiah carried out some good plans and policies BUT HE WASN'T GOD; he wasn't "Mighty God!" Hezekiah's reign came to an end - in fact, not a very pleasant end.
Isaiah 9:6-7 cannot possibly be referring to the reign of Hezekiah. For Isaiah says elsewhere of Hezekiah in 39:5-7, "Here the word of the LORD Almighty: The time will surely come when everything in your palace, and all that your fathers have stored up until this day, will be carried off to Babylon. Nothing will be left, says the LORD. And some of your descendants, your own flesh and blood who will be born to you, will be taken away, and they will become eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon." This Happened! So this would be the opposite of the requirement that "Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end." So there would be an inconsistency if both verses referred to Hezekiah which would make Isaiah into a false prophet. Instead, Isaiah 9:6-7 must be referring to the messianic kingdom since it is referring to a kingdom that will last forever in peace.
.
The reason we know this verse is clearly messianic is because it refers to the everlasting throne of King David.
Lets examine the nature of the this child’s authority.

-Government will be upon His shoulder
-Increase of His government and peace There will be no end
-Upon the throne of David
-Over His kingdom
-Establish it with judgment and justice
-Even forever

Isaiah proclaims the Messiah would be a Son of man by being born as a child, and at the same time be a “son” given. He goes on to identify the nature of this “son” and “child” by identifying him as “Mighty God”, “ Father of iternity” and “Prince of Peace” terms only used here in the Tanakh, except for Mighty God (El Gabor) which appears two other times in Isaiah 10:21 and Ezekiel 32:21.
This verse ties in beautifully with Isaiah 7:14

[yor1]

One has to remember that the word Elohim does not mean God.. It means mighty one.Which was used to refer to Any exalted being including kings angels judges and rulers..
The text that says
Wonderful in council is the mighty one, the Father of everlasting ruler of peace, which the king James and those thereafter have rendered
Wonderful councilor mighty God everlasting Father prince of peace has one unanswered glitch.
If indeed it is describing The Messiah rather than presenting a name then What do you make of the part that calls him
Everlasting Father?
Clearly he is not the father unless you are from the Apostolic pentecostal thought

[sassyT]

One has to remember that the word Elohim does not mean God..It means mighty one.Which was used to refer to Any exalted being including kings angels judges and rulers..
The text that says
Wonderful in council is the mighty one, the Father of everlasting ruler of peace, which the king James and those thereafter have rendered
Wonderful councilor mighty God everlasting Father prince of peace has one unanswered glitch.
If indeed it is describing The Messiah rather than presenting a name then What do you make of the part that calls him
Everlasting Father??
Clearly he is not the father unless you are from the Apostolic pentecostal thought

The Word Elohim is the plural of Eloah and is the first name of God given in the Tanakh "In the Beginning God (Elohim) created the Heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1
But the Word Used in 9:6 is EL Gibor which IS translated The Mighty God in Jewish translations.


El God Genesis 28:3; 35:11; Numbers 23:22; Joshua 3:10; 2 Samuel 22:31-32; Nehemiah 1:5; 9:32; Isaiah 9:6; Ezekiel 10:5 ad infinitum
El Gadol Gibor Yare Great, Mighty Awesome God Deuteronomy 10:17; Nehemiah 9:32
Elohay Elohim God of gods Deuteronomy 10:17; Joshua 22:22; Psalm 136:2; Daniel 2:47; 11:36
Elohim Plural God Genesis 1:1; 14:18-20, 22; 17:7; 6:18; 9:15; 50:24; Deuteronomy 5:23; 8:15; 1 Kings 8:23; Psalm 68:7; Isaiah 40:1; 45:18; 54:5; Jeremiah 31:3; 32:27
Elohim Shamayim God in Heaven

So Clearly El means GOD.

[sassyT]

Yor1
In Isa 9.6, "Everlasting Father" translates the Hebrew 'abiy`ad. The literal translation of abiy`ad is "Father of Eternity."

When used in this context, "Father" of something means the originator and/or source.

Thus, Isa 9.6 is saying that Jesus is the originator and source of eternity.

You will find a similar idiom in John 8.44, where the devil is referred to as the "father" of lying and murder.

[Onan]

Onan, God in many instances through the prophesies actually told the Children of Israel to expect a messiah(Jesus) who will have an everlasting Kingdom of Rule. So no, it does not go against anything.

Yes, Hezekiah was a better man than Ahaz; Hezekiah carried out some good plans and policies BUT HE WASN'T GOD; he wasn't "Mighty God!" Hezekiah's reign came to an end - in fact, not a very pleasant end.
Isaiah 9:6-7 cannot possibly be referring to the reign of Hezekiah. For Isaiah says elsewhere of Hezekiah in 39:5-7, "Here the word of the LORD Almighty: The time will surely come when everything in your palace, and all that your fathers have stored up until this day, will be carried off to Babylon. Nothing will be left, says the LORD. And some of your descendants, your own flesh and blood who will be born to you, will be taken away, and they will become eunuchs in the palace of the king of Babylon." This Happened! So this would be the opposite of the requirement that "Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end." So there would be an inconsistency if both verses referred to Hezekiah which would make Isaiah into a false prophet. Instead, Isaiah 9:6-7 must be referring to the messianic kingdom since it is referring to a kingdom that will last forever in peace.
.

I just want to say this was a wonderfully thought out post, and you are a much better writer than I am. I really hate to keep this going here because it seems I kind of took this away from the original question. What bothers me though, is the loose translation of Messiah that christians have. You guys think there is only or will be only one.

The word for savior in Hebrew is “Moshee’a’ah” which means “deliverer.” The word for “anointed” in Hebrew is “Mash’akh” which means “smeared” (with oil). The Greek Septuagint combined both meanings and came up with the Greek word, Messiah. Therefore, to be the Jewish Messiah, one has to be a DELIVERER (Savior), and one has to be ANOINTED with oil, and one major event must happen during the messiah's time on earth – there must be peace in Israel. Jews have always believed that the “Savior of Israel” would be a man of flesh and blood like themselves that would deliver them out of oppression, pain and suffering. There have been “saviors and “deliverers” throughout the history of Israel and many were even crucified on the cross. No where in the OT does it say it will take a second coming for what the Messiah is supposed to do. That's why Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. There was things the Messiah is supposed to do that quite frankly Jesus did not do. King Hezekiah was very much considered a Messiah to the Jews because there was peace in the land(for awhile) and he was anointed. Almost every Jewish King could be called a Messiah.

I just think it should be remembered that the Jews expected a human and most of the time a military leader. Jesus didn't fill the requirements here because he was a demi god and he was no military leader. I would also like to point out that he was not anointed either

[yor1]

Yes the text does lead to " Father of eternity"
But does it not seem convenient to change the translation from " eternal father when that rendering becomes complex to explain but retain the rendering Wonderful councilor rather than the Hebrew "wonderful in council" and to include the word GOD in mighty God instead of the Hebrew " Mighty one". There is not question that the word Elohim is a plural form but does not translate to Gods but to "Mighty Ones".. As Was indicated reflecting any who are in an exalted position..The Hebrew word that more nearly represents god is the word Baal.. But that is not used of the Almighty...

As for Immanuel That should rather be understood " the Mighty one among us"
" the mighty one With us"
Even the Greek word theos does not carry the same intent of divinity that Our English has come to mean ..
Jesus himself says Does not The Almighty call men gods..Taken from John.. Here he is reflecting off the idea that Judges were given divine authority..And its this that the Hebrew and Greek reflect in the usage of Elohim and Theos...They better infer ..One who is in dominion and is exalted..
Now I understand that most often the Word Elohim and Theos are indeed focusing upon the Almighty God, the One True God, the Father of all life, the Creator of the world.. But the word itself does not reflect this its the use and context that reflect the intent and focus..

As for John one
The text actually says..
Theos is the logos not the word is God...
Its mans interpretation od the grimmer that is being modified to present the rendering
The word is God..
But is actually written
God is the word.
Some conclude that the use of God here allows for its to be read
The word is a god
There is also the possibility that the leaving out of the article before theos makes it a subject to the word and would then read " The word is God"
But it can also be read as an adjective and read
Godly is the word..
The absolutism of the traditional reading does not inspire