[bill022572]

HI - brand new to the site. I have an approximately 38 year old house in south Florida. My walk-in shower in my master bath is leaking. It is tiled and was obviously built to fit - it is an odd size and the drain is not in the center. I have cut into a wall that lets me see the method of construction and it appears it was built within a 1'x8" wood box and they used some sort of paper - looks likes roofing felt. My question is : would it be easier to try and rebuild it using a vinyl liner or move the drain ( it is in concrete ) and try to adapt a ready-made size shower pan ? Thanks for any input.

[massplumber2008]

Hey Bill:

Are you suggesting that the shower is completely gone.. Are you saying that you are sure you want to rip this unit out and try to install a new unit?

If so, then a prefab floor is certainly the easiest and most affordable way to go. Check out this site for more information on prefab shower floors: Swanstone

You would just need to move the drain to match up to new floor and frame as needed.

If custom is more to your liking and you want to maximize your shower size then a custom vinyl shower pan is the way to go... but this is much more difficult to pull off.

Check out this link to learn more about installing a custom shower system: How to Build a Shower Pan

If you are a handy guy... we will be glad to help you through the phases of custom job. If only slightly handy you should seriously consider the PREFAB...

Let me know what you think here...

MARK

[bill022572]

HI MP2008 - I appreciate the quick response. I would say I am pretty handy and am a pretty quick learner - even though I have no experience with this particular type of repair. I did see on the Swanstone website that they have a pre-formed shower pan that is close to the size of my shower - like I said - it would need a little tweaking of the walls to make it fit ( the Swanstone pan is slightly smaller ). I would have to go into the slab and move the p-trap and pipe ( the pipes are cast iron ) so this would be another issue. I'm guessing a complete tear-out and some sort of replacement is in order - it's leaking when we use the shower. I put a test-plug in the drain and put about 4 gallons of water in the shower - it leaked immediately. I had a company ( they come in and cover over all the walls and floor - replace the door - replace the water valve ) - the only problem is that their BASIC package is $4800 - I don't think so ! I would be willing to try building my own pan - just not sure what the best thing is to do. Thanks again for your input and appreciate all replies.

[ballengerb1]

I'd go with Mark's suggestion. I install Swanstone almost exclusively. You can build out your walls by installing Hardibacker board and tile, that will add about an inch. I can't see your shower but I would not try to save a 38 year old mud pan. Speedball1 is a retired plumber in Sarasota, maybe he'd come over and take a look for a few cold ones.

[bill022572]

Kind of what I have been thinking. Would you use the Swanstone wall panels or would I be OK tilling the walls ? And does anyone have any tips / advice / suggestions for moving the drain ? I think I have a basic idea how to do it - but would appreciate any input.

[ballengerb1]

They make a good product but I never use their panels. I do a great tile wall and most folks have been very happy with the finished tile look and service. If you have never tiled a shower before you can hire a pro or we can walk you through the steps. It is not rocket science.

[massplumber2008]

Hey Bill:

Moving the drain should not be too hard depending on just how far the drain has to be moved.

If the drain only has to be moved let's say 6 inches or so (depending on how deep pipe and p-trap are) you may be able to get away with opening up the floor about 2 feet wide, digging out the dirt, and then cutting the cast iron riser using a diamond blade in an angle grinder and then attaching a shielded clamp (see picture) onto it to transition over to 2-2" PVC 45 degree fittings and simply OFFSET into alignment with the new location of the drain (you cannot use 90 degree fittings to offset).

If the distance to be moved is much more than 6 inches or the pipe/p-trap isn't deep enough then you will need to dig down to the p-trap and cut out the p-trap using the grinder, attach the shielded clmap onto the pipe and run new pvc pipe and p-trap over to new drain so it is directly below the new drain location (pvc out of trap to new drain).

Then you would backfill, patch the concrete (put coffee can around the pipe while cementing) and then install a new PREFAB shower pan with drain assembly in a bed of mortar, level it and you should be all set with pan (unless going custom..then will need to discuss this more with you). I leave my pipe long and then once the pan is set I cut it down using an inside cutting tool (see last picture.. sold at home depot or lowes).

Then you install hardibacker cement board on walls with alkali-resistant screws hardibacker sells (install cement board so it is 1/4" above pan and then silicone between pan and cement board, then you fiberglass tape (alkali-resistant) and seal all joints with thinset mortar and follow instructions as outlined at the following link (scroll down to walls):

James Hardie: HardieBacker 500 backerboard

Then you tile the walls, etc...

Let us know if/when you need more info. Here... me and Bob (and others here... ;) ) have some pretty extensive experience with these jobs!

MARK

[bill022572]

HI MARK - I really appreciate that answer. From the measurements I have been able to take ( with everything in place ), it looks like I need to move the riser pipe over only about a few inches. If I measure from the floor of the shower to the water level in the trap, it is about 8 - 8.5 inches ( and after allowing for a slight build-up of the shower floor ), which seems to be only about 0.5 inch, that should mean the drain pipe itself would be about 8 inches or so deep. I guess the bottom of the p-trap would be about a few inches below that. Would that leave me enough room to use double 45 degree fittings and offset the riser as you suggest ? Thanks again for the input.

[massplumber2008]

Hi Bill...

It's close... but I think it will work here. Will need to cut the cast riser 1" off the p-trap, then install the shielded clamp, then install a STREET 45 degree PVC fitting (see pic. #1) into the clamp and measure from there to the next regular 45 (see pic. #2) so it lines up under the hole in shower base. Then stub up long as I said in last post, etc...

Of course, can't be 100% sure, but if only offsetting 3" or less this should work fine.. ;)

Keep us posted as you go..ok?

And as you noticed, we come and go regularly so just post any info. You want us to get to and we will get back pretty fast (I post early AM and most evenings around 6:00 pm and again around 9:00 pmish... east coast time).

Good day...

MARK

[bill022572]

HI MARK - - - Thanks for the response - I really appreciate it. Your input has been really helpful. I have company coming in this weekend for a couple of days, so I don't want to down the shower in the next couple of days - probably will start next week. Will be able to tell more after removing shower floor and getting exact measurements - but I would assume after your last response that if any of the measurements are less than what I have estimated up to now - I may not have enough depth to use the offset fittings and will need to move the whole trap. I'm guessing I would also be advised to actually have the pre-formed pan here in my possession before moving the drain. I would assume that would allow me to make for a more accurate positioning of the riser. Thanks again.

[massplumber2008]

Your assumptions are correct... ;)

Keep us posted.

[bill022572]

HI again. Been thinking about this more. I think I'm either going to go with the pre-formed Swanstone pan ( and move the drain ) and then tile the walls OR build the whole thing from scratch ( and hopefully expand my DIY resume in the process ). I'm guessing that building it myself would be the most cost effective ( I.E. cheapest ) but mostly labor intensive. Does that sound about right ?

[Milo Dolezal]

You will cut down you costs significantly every time you attempt to do any repair yourself. This applies to building your shower pan. If you need help, come back to this forum and we will help you with details...

[massplumber2008]

Hey Bill...

Actually, installing a pre-fab pan is cheapest in terms of cost (usually under $200.00), and labor (much less labor than pre-pitching a membrane, installing a membrane, lugging, mixing, and pouring 6-10 bags of concrete). Never mind the fact that all this costs money (membrane/mortar mix, floor tile, grout, etc usually over $200.00 right there PLUS all the labor getting materials and installing them! ) and that the custom floor can leak if installed incorrectly (can be tricky and very time consuming to build and test the pan then lay the tile and grout the tile).

Then you can cement board the walls and tile away... either way you do it.

Just wanted you to be clear why we recommend those pre-fabs... much less work, time and money! 'Course, not quite as sexy as having a custom tile floor either... ;) Up to you... hmmm..?

Keep us posted...

Thanks... MARK

[bill022572]

HI Mark and All -

I went today and checked the measurements on two 45 degree fittings and it looks like you are right : it will be extremely close. From what I could see : if you butted the 2 fittings against each other, it measures 8" from top to bottom and looks like it would create an offset of 3". Like I said - extremely close to my pre-tearing out the shower measurements. If I get it out and it won't work - I would have to dig more up and move the p-trap. If I do that, I would probably just replace it all the way to the stack. It's probably only about 3 - 4 feet anyway.

[massplumber2008]

Hi Bill:

Don't forget about the STREET 45 degree fitting I posted earlier... that will allow another 3/4" in height.

Thanks for update. Good luck on removal!

MARK

[bill022572]

HEY Mark - - -

Thanks for the reminder - I did use a regular 45 and a street 45 when measuring. But I have another question. I don't know if I should ask it as another post or continue this one - but here goes. In my travels around the internet, I have seen products that help you create a - quote / unquote - "fool-proof" slope while building a shower floor. Hopefully this will make sense. What you use are basically pre-sloped sticks that you put down on your base floor and then put the deck mud over them. You put them from the drain out to the walls - no more than 2 feet apart at the walls. Then - when you screed over them you have created a proper slope. Apparently you can also use this to allow for a slightly off-center drain. There is company called DIX that carries these and calls them a Quick-Pitch kit. Their website is Shower Floor Liner | Shower Liner | Shower Pan | Ceramic Tile Showers Has anyone ever heard / used this method ? It kind of makes sense to me - but all of you would know better. Thanks again for all the answers so far.

[massplumber2008]

Hi Bill...

I have seen these and have heard that people are using these with success. I have never used them.

You still need to pre-pitch the floor 3/4" to 1" max. at walls to nothing at center under the membrane BEFORE applying the membrane and then you would apply the quick-pitch kit after applying the membrane.

Also, it is important to put small stones at the drain itself to cover the WEEP HOLES in the drain prior to pouring mud mix. Here, the pre-pitched floor and then the membrane direct any water that gets to membrane toward the drain and finally down the drain through the weep holes. If these holes get plugged or the membrane is not pitched then water pools and collects and mold can begin to grow and mud begins to break down.

Here is quick decription of how I do things...

I do all that has been stated above, including test my pan overnight (see previous post) and then I take the drain/strainer and duct tape over the top of it. Then I take my drain strainer and spin it up to max. height... then I lower it back down 3/4" - 1" max.. Now I take a 2' or 4' level and set it onto the drain/strainer and find a pitch I like to farthest wall... say 1/4" per foot... and mark that onto the membrane with a permanent marker. Then I transfer this mark as level line all around the membrane. This is my level line for the floor perimeter (drain location matters little with this technique).

Then I install the mud mix (should be consistency that creates a dry ball in hand) and use a screed and wood float (sold at any home improvement store) to establish the basic level perimeter and then fill in the rest of pan with mud mix and screed the floor from the perimeter to the drain/strainer... EFFECTIVELY USING THE DRAIN/STRAINER AS MY QUICK-PITCH KIT... Then I use the wood float to smooth out any rough spots and floor is finished.

NOW... right away I take the drain/strainer and begin to loosen it (use screwdrivers to puncture hole in duct tape) so that it rises above the floor to the thickness of my tile PLUS about an 1/8" to allow for thinset adhesive thickness and then let the floor dry overnight.

Review the first link I posted above (how to build custom shower) and then review info. Posted here and then decide if you are going old fashioned route... ;) or the new fangled quick-pitch kit way or even if going back to idea of a pre-fab floor.

All options are good options here!

Let me know what you think...

MARK

[bill022572]

Hey Mark - - -

Thanks again for the reply. I think what my plan of attack for right now is to decide what kind of tile and then price out my material list for building my own shower pan should I decide to go that route. My problem is that the pre-made shower pan by Swanstone ( in a 34" by 54" ) that my wife and I would prefer is in the $550 - $600 range. I think I could probably find a tile and build it myself quite a bit less expensively than that. Either way - my plan is to tile the walls anyway. My only concern is that a project that looks semi-easy ( in print or on video ) usually turns out to be a bit more difficult when actually doing it. A few questions though :
1. What would be the largest size tiles you would recommend for the floor ?
2. Do you have a preference as to brand of shower drain - I have looked at a few
Different ones and they all seem similar but with minor differences ?
3. The curb seems to be the hardest thing to water-proof. What method do you
Prefer to build and install the membrane around the curb and sealing it ?
Once again, I have seen quite a few different methods to do this.
4. I have also seen special inside and outside corners to help seal the membrane.
Have you used these and would you recommend them or are they not necessary
In your opinion ?
That's what I can think of right now - once again - I appreciate all of your quick and
Helpful replies. Oh - I just thought of something else : I will probably have to dig up my drain anyway because I think it is all cast iron. I think I will probably have to change it over to PVC to connect it to the new drain. Any thoughts on that ? Thanks again.

[massplumber2008]

Hey hey...

1) I recommend tiles no larger than 3"... mosaics on sheet work best for laying down floor in shower.

2) No preference for shower strainer except that it will be easier for you to tile around a SQUARE strainer so look for drains with square strainer.

3 and 4) The curb is not easy... use 3-2"x4" and wrap membrane over that... at corners will need to cut round membrane patches to seal the corners. Then, recently (I used to use wire mesh and mud), I started to use concrete board with a few screws to attach the concrete board through membrane to wood, but then I wrap the concrete board with a polyester tape and roll on a waterproof membrane (paints on) over that to seal all edges associated with the threshold and the floor. Then I paint/roll the water proof membrane over the cement board walls and seal the edges using that polyester tape supplied with the waterproofing and I have a water tight job everywhere...

Check out this link for more info.:

http://www.nacproducts.com/documents...al-2008.03.pdf

http://www.crommelin.com.au/pdfs/showerwpmembrane.pdf

Some people are actually using this as the entire shower pan itself and if installed per manufacturer's recommendations the manufacturer guarantees this stuff...Hmmmmm (but I can't recommend it... as contractor I simply need better assurrances). I will find the name of the stuff that I have been using and post that for you later. The stuff I use adds another $100.00 to the job but guarantees no issues at curbs/edges or seats (if adding one)!

Finally, you would dig down enough to cut the cast pipe with an angle grinder with a diamond blade and then you would install a SHIELDED CLAMP (see picture) to transition over to PVC pipe.

Let me know what you think...

MARK