[bill022572]

Hey Mark - - -

I appreciate the quick response. Interesting what you said about the square drain strainer - so obvious but never really thought of it that way. No question - should be a lot easier to tile around a square srtrainer. And thanks for the info on the curb. On the corners - do you just cut your own patches or do you use the ready-made ones ? I suspect you ( as someone who does this all the time - probably makes their own ) and do you just cut them from from the same membrane. Any links or info on the way to cut them properly ? This area would be one of my biggest concerns. And what do you seal them down with ? Cement ? Thanks again.

[massplumber2008]

Yes... you cut them yourself (4-6 inch circles) and then use a membrane liner cement to install patches. The cement is like a contact cement in which you apply to both surfaces and let dry for 2 minutes then press together to seal.

You also use this liner cement to close all corners that you fold to make the pan... be careful not to fold corners so water can leak out from behind... make so fold climbs the wall not runs along the floor.

Back at you!

[Milo Dolezal]

I will just jump in with my advice...

You buy inside and outside corner patches with the liner. Also, they sell specific glue for PVC liner installation.

As far as the drain goes: you can always get regular round drain. Then you buy square frame for it that fist over it.

[bill022572]

Hey Mark - - -

Just wondered if you get a chance, could you post the name of the stuff you use to seal the edges/curbs or seats. I would be less concerned about adding another $100 just so I get everything sealed correctly. I saw somewhere a product called BITUTHENE : it looks to me to be like a sheet of membrane with adhesive attached to it ( something like you use on a roof - under the shingles ). It might be made by a company called GRACE ( which I know makes roofing products and might possibly make this or other things. Have you ever heard of this ? Also, do you ( or anyone else ) have a preference for a brand of membrane liner ? As always, I appreciate the quick responses - I'm a believer in mucho research before starting a project. BILL

[bill022572]

Hey Milo - - -

Didn't mean to ignore your advice. That was rude of me. Believe me, I appreciate any and all advice / help I can get.

[massplumber2008]

Hi Bill...

Usually just want to purchase the pvc liner available at home depot OR at your local plumbing supply house. They will also have the pvc liner cement there as well. I want you to stick with shower membrane specifically.. ok?

I've been using laticretes WATERTIGHT floor and wall waterproofing membrane (see picture below) available in 1, 3, and 5 gallon buckets. I purchase this stuff from my local tile supply company but home depot also sells a REDGUARD waterproofing membrane... check that one out, usually near the cement board... ;)

Click on this link for more info. On laticrete's watertight:

AOL Image Search results for "laticrete watertight floor and wall waterproofing membrane"

Click on this link for redguard's stuff:

AOL Image Search results for "redgard floor and wall waterproofing membrane"

I think speedball1 likes a blue compaseal membrane but I could not find any info. On this brand!

Let me know...

MARK

[bill022572]

HI Mark and everyone - - -

I have managed to think of another question. Is there any way to determine / estimate how many bags of portland cement and sand I would need for a shower floor with measurements of 57" by 34" ? I know I need a mix of 3 or 4 parts of sand to 1 part portland cement but don't really have any idea how many bags of each I might need. I only ask this question so I don't haul too many more bags home than I need ( or not enough ). I am trying to put together my list of supplies and even a ballpark figure would help. As always, I am extremely appreciative for your help and advice.

[massplumber2008]

Hey Bill...

This being your first attempt at mixing floor I would recommend that you go to your local tile distributer and purchase a premix thick floor mud....that way you have a consistent strength throughout floor.

This stuff is great. They will be able to estimate number of bags needed for your project, too (probably 4-6 bags if 80lb. Bags... depends on how thick floor will be).

Good luck!

[bill022572]

Hey Mark and All - - -

In my research, I have heard mention of having to notch the wall studs for the liner to fit properly. Some people say this is necessary and some don't mention it at all. What do you think ?

[massplumber2008]

Hi Bill... I don't ever notch my studs... not that it will hurt anything I just don't think it is necessary.

I know why they do it, but if folds in liner are done right and kept tight to wall... when cement board is attached it pulls all in tight (remember not to screw below the height of the threshold). If anything not quite plumb when finished then when you tape the seams you can float a little extra adhesive to straighten it out!

You would be amazed at how little imperfections don't get noticed when tile is set onto wall and grouted.

Again, up to you here... either way works out just fine!

AND just FYI... if you see the button next to my name turned green it means I am online and will get to you in 5 minutes or so (usually) so when you see the green light keep refreshing your screen and I am sure I will answer. I know when you pop online cause my profile tells me and I am usually answering your question when you pop out 'cause... I figure... you don't know about the green light!


Talk later...

MARK

.

[bill022572]

Hey Mark - - -

Thanks for the green light info. I did not know that. And about the notching - that's actually kind of what I thought - just wanted some back-up. And also - do you recommend using 2" x 10 's or what to box in around the lower area of the shower ? And I'm guessing that these should be installed flush with the front face of the studs - and just toe-nailed to the stud. A lot of the pictures I have seen look like they have installed the blocking on the face of the studs. That doesn't make any sense. Wouldn't that make it stick out and prevent you having a smooth flat surface to mount the cement board. And do you think I need a vapor barrier under the cement board ?

[massplumber2008]

Hi Bill...

YUP! 2"x10" are excellent choice for backing bottom and like you said, toe-nail to studs so wood is flush with studs.

A vapor barrier is important... either install plastic sheeting behind the concrete board or use the redguard waterproofing membrane OVER the cement board (after taping seams) which will not only act as a vapor barrier, but will also waterproof the cement board and the screw heads!

Keep me posted...

MARK

[bill022572]

Hey All - - -

Another quick question. So far - the only pre-mix I have found is at HD and is made by Jamo and is called FLOOR MUD. It says it is a mix of portland cement and sand and chemical modifiers and is made for floating shower pans and other floor areas. It does not give a breakdown of how much cement to sand and does not say exactly what chemical modifiers are in it. I have also read that supposedly HD sells an item called SAND ( TOPPING ) MIX but have had no luck even finding this. Does anyone have any input or experience with the Jamo Floor Mud ?

[massplumber2008]

Floor mud it is Bill... all I use for shower floors. The name of mine is different but it is a FLOOR MUD that also has chemical modifiers to strengthen the floor.

You DO NOT want the sand topping mix... floor would crack open in just weeks!

Keep em' coming...

MARK

[bill022572]

HI Mark and All - - -

Seems like all we do this time of year is dodge hurricanes. Haven't had time to really do anything other than continued research. One thing I did do was to build myself a box from scraps ( about 36" x 20" x 6" high ). I cut a small hole in the center to act as a drain and I got a bag of the floor mud and did a little experiment. I marked a level line all the way around on the inside about 1/2" high. I put the mud in and screed it and actually ended up with about a 5/8" slope to the center ( measured with a small level ). I did this just to see if I would be OK. It seems to have worked well, but here is my question. When I was packing the mud, water seemed to rise to the surface. I think it might be called bleed water. After I finished screeding and smoothing the mud and letting it set for a while, it was gone ( I would guess it soaked back in ). I am now letting it sit overnight ( I just did it this afternoon ). It seems pretty solid. My question : was that normal or did I do something wrong ? Just want to make sure before I continue. THANKS

[bill022572]

HI again - - -

I forgot - I think I may have mixed too much water in the mud. The directions on the bag
(50 lb. bag ) said to use 1 and 1/4 gallons. It seemed like too much but I followed the directions figuring if it was too much, I could just use less the next time.

[massplumber2008]

Use a little less H20 to start Bill... see what you think from there.

One trick when floating shower mud floor is to use a WOOD FLOAT to work the mud and only at the very end might you use a metal float/trowel. Home depot sells these for like 6 dollars... just like a regular trowel but made of wood and has regular handle on it. You may need to wet it periodically by dipping in bucket... but don't overdo.

Metal has tendency to pull water to the surface of the concrete and should only be used at the very end to finish/smooth the surface.

Another trick or two for you....

1) Stick a rag down the drain to keep concrete that may fall in from filling the ptrap (tie string onto it and just be sure to remove later! ).

2) Use the strainer as a place to screed too... Here, you twist the drain to highest point and then lower it down about 1 inch. Then you take level and make a mark on the longest wall that represents 1/4" pitch per foot. Then you draw a level line all around the pan using a permanent marker. Now, tape over the strainer with duct tape (I put longer pieces over the strainer and then use a tool to press tape into perimeter of strainer so that it effectively cuts the tape on perimeter). Then you will add mud and work it in with wood float... then use 2 foot level or straight edge to screed from the wall markings to the drain strainer. The strainer and the marks on wall should make for consistent pitch at mud floor. After you are satisfied that you have floor you like remove the duct tape and spin the strainer up (can use two screwdrivers in strainer holes to grab and rotate unit) so it meets the tile you will be using PLUS 1/8" or so added height to account for thinset mortar... idea here is to bring the strainer up so when you finally tile with adhesive that your strainer is flush or slightly lower than the tile... BUT NOT HIGHER!!

Then remove the strainer screws and remove the rag...then pour 3 cups water into drain itself (keep sewer gasses out) and re-install the strainer and screws. At this time if there is a name on the strainer square it up to walls.

Double check all and floor should be set. Let me know if that made sense... ok?

MARK

[bill022572]

HI again - - -

I will definitely get a wood float - I just used what I had around for my little experiment. Mainly it was just to see how hard the mud was to work with. So I guess that some bleed water is normal - like I said though, I was pretty sure I had added too much water. A question though : would too much water make the mud bed not as strong ? How smooth should the surface be after curing ? ( Sorry - 2 questions. ) And that all made perfect sense - thanks again for all the advice and encouragement.

BILL

[massplumber2008]

Great...

Now.. and I should have made this clear at my last post... that mud needs to be pretty darn stiff... the way it was described to me is that you want the mud to form a baseball type shape when you take it up in your hand and squeeze it (it should remain as a ball)... any wetter and this will definitely adversly effect the strength of the floor... just like you were thinking!

Anyway, try another small batch to see what I am talking about... just mix a little and play with it until it forms that ball shape I mentioned.. that is what you want to work with. The first few times I did mud floors I worried throughout that all was too dry... it wasn't... that's my best explanation.

Let me know how you do.

Mark

[bill022572]

Hey - - -

It's me again. I was checking on the website for the company that makes the floor mud I used for my little experiment, and according to the MSDS sheet for the mud, it contains about 37% sand and 12% portland cement and 1% lime. This would mean that there is only roughly about a 3 parts sand to 1 part cement mix plus the lime. From what I have read, a better mix is 4-5 parts sand to 1 part cement ( I think it makes it easier to work with ). Most of what I have read says a 3-1 mix is "too rich". I have also read that having lime in there will make it sticky and more difficult to work with. Do you think I would be advised to maybe add some sand to the mix or just scrap the floor mud mix and make my own ? Thanks