[ZachZ]

Here's a question I've been asking that no Christian has ever been able to provide a satisfactory answer for that does not clearly violate simple rules of logic, or trinitarian Christian theology. I truly believe it's the kernel of truth that has the power to crack apart trinitarian Christianity.

The question is:

"If Jesus is supposed to be fully man and fully God, and died on the cross... then WHO resurrected him?"

Answer A) is:
If you say "God the father resurrected him" then you prove that Jesus was NOT God in full because a separate God entity did the resurrecting. This violates the 'trinity.'

Answer B) is:
If you say "The God nature left Jesus" then you are essentially saying that God did NOT die, and the death of Jesus was no important sacrifice at all. A human man was tortured for a weekend and died. How is this supposed to atone for all the sins of humanity?

Not to mention that human sacrifice is explicitly forbidden by Torah, and the manner of death runs afoul of at least a dozen laws regarding kosher sin sacrifice: The death wasn't by kosher shecht (slaughter), the offering was not made at the Temple, the offering wasn't made by Temple priests, the body wasn't without physical blemish, etc. This makes Christianity a religion based upon an unkosher, human sacrifice.

Answer C) is:
If you say "It's a mystery" or "With God all things are possible" you are basically saying you have no answer and give up. You recognize the inherent contradiction but choose to pull the wool over your own eyes, and hope your brain never rejects the obvious, glaring logical incompatibility.

All 3 choices - A, B and C - crack apart the foundation of Christianity.

Any Christian out there want to take a shot at it?

[N0help4u]

Try to think of it in terms of a clone if that helps any.

I would give you all the triune examples
and explain it that way but I am sure you have heard them all before.

ex: body, soul, spirit =one being
solid, liquid, vapor

The Divine Trinity by Henry Morris

[ZachZ]

solid, liquid, vapor

This is modalism, not trinitarianism. When water is solid, that water is not also liquid or vapor at the same time.

[N0help4u]

When it is going through the changing process it would be a combination of at least two.

[ZachZ]

Not a good metaphor for trinitarianism .

[N0help4u]

Also first you have to establish if the Bible MEANS or says that Jesus is fully God and/or fully man and not each simultaneously.

Some people say it is more like where the Bible says a husband and wife are one and they have a child then that is three and they are the Jones family which makes them 1.

[pnkrkmama]

WOW you have a very warped view of things. I was raised with both parents having Masters in Theology. Jesus did not come to save our brains and give us infinite understanding He died for our soul/spirits. Therefore, if you try to approach this question and filter the infinite concept of God and man and the crucifixion through our limited understanding and mental capacity we will always end up in the dark and confused. The act of dying on the cross for our sins and bringing our souls to Himself in heaven and giving us an advocate, the Holy Spirit, is for your spirit to understand, grasp, and accept... yes, there is such a thing as spiritual understanding... Shutting your heart and allowing your head take over is only to YOUR detriment.. "For now we see in a miror dimly but soon face to face."

Why so hard and mad?

[JoeT777]

Here's a question I've been asking that no Christian has ever been able to provide a satisfactory answer for that does not clearly violate simple rules of logic, or trinitarian Christian theology. I truly believe it's the kernel of truth that has the power to crack apart trinitarian Christianity.

The question is:

"If Jesus is supposed to be fully man and fully God, and died on the cross... then WHO resurrected him?"

Answer A) is:
If you say "God the father resurrected him" then you prove that Jesus was NOT God in full because a separate God entity did the resurrecting. This violates the 'trinity.'

Answer B) is:
If you say "The God nature left Jesus" then you are essentially saying that God did NOT die, and the death of Jesus was no important sacrifice at all. A human man was tortured for a weekend and died. How is this supposed to atone for all the sins of humanity?

Not to mention that human sacrifice is explicitly forbidden by Torah, and the manner of death runs afoul of at least a dozen laws regarding kosher sin sacrifice: The death wasn't by kosher shecht (slaughter), the offering was not made at the Temple, the offering wasn't made by Temple priests, the body wasn't without physical blemish, etc. This makes Christianity a religion based upon an unkosher, human sacrifice.

Answer C) is:
If you say "It's a mystery" or "With God all things are possible" you are basically saying you have no answer and give up. You recognize the inherent contradiction but choose to pull the wool over your own eyes, and hope your brain never rejects the obvious, glaring logical incompatibility.

All 3 choices - A, B and C - crack apart the foundation of Christianity.

Any Christian out there want to take a shot at it?

If Christ was a man, he had both body and soul. If he was God, He IS. Therefore, both Jesus the man and Jesus the God were crucified. If it would be one or the other you have the conundrum referred to in the question. Our being consists of both body and soul. A being having both body and soul is why God promises us new bodies in heaven – we aren't complete as beings without our bodies as spiritual beings.

JoeT

[N0help4u]

Joe777
Then why does the Bible say Jesus said "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Matthew 27:46
Does the Bible show that God was with Jesus when he went to preach to the dead in the place you call Purgatory or that he wasn't?

God never rejected Jesus but it does show that he did turn his back on him just as when
Adam and Eve sinned they were SEPARATED from the closeness they had had doesn't say that God rejected them just that they were separated for a time.

[revdrgade]

God's word makes it clear that "God raised Him from the dead". Answer A.

Rom 1:1-4
1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— to the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
NIV

It was by God's power that the Son of God was raised.

It is by that resurrection that He is declared to be the Son of God.

It is in the resurrection of the Son that all other who are raised to life will be able to be raised to life.

1 Cor 15:21-22
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
NIV

*******************************************

What you are MISSING is that the Son of God, being the Son of God with all power and authority of God RAISED HIMSELF!
Read carefully:

John 10:16-18, 28-30
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life — only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." .....

28 "I give them eternal life , and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."
NIV.

Contrary to you proposition, the resurrection of Jesus the Christ PROVES the truth that Jesus is God who took on the flesh of man in order to redeem us from the power of the devil and our own sin.

"Simple logic" has to conclude that if it God Who raised Jesus the Christ... and Jesus the Christ says that He raised Himself... that Jesus the Christ MUST BE God.

[JoeT777]

Joe777
Then why does the Bible say Jesus said "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Matthew 27:46
Does the Bible show that God was with Jesus when he went to preach to the dead in the place you call Purgatory or that he wasn't?

God never rejected Jesus but it does show that he did turn his back on him just as when
Adam and Eve sinned they were SEPARATED from the closeness they had had doesn't say that God rejected them just that they were separated for a time.

5…For even in the case of transgressions a certain man is said to have asked of God, and not to have been hearkened to for his good. For privations of this world had inspired him to prayer, and being set in temporal tribulations he had wished that temporal tribulations should pass away, and there should return the flower of grass; and he says, My God, my God, why have You forsaken me? The very voice of Christ it is, but for His members' sake. The words, he says, of my transgressions I have cried to You throughout the day, and You have not hearkened: and by night, and not for the sake of folly to me: that is, and by night I have cried, and You have not hearkened; and nevertheless in this very thing that You have not hearkened, it is not for the sake of folly to me that You have not hearkened, but rather for the sake of wisdom that You have not hearkened, that I might perceive what of You I ought to ask. For those things I was asking which to my cost perchance I should have received. St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 54

And:

But when has the Father forsaken the Son, or the Son the Father? Are not Father and Son one God? Whence then, My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me, save that in the Flesh of infirmity there was acknowledged the voice of a sinner? For as He took upon Him the likeness of the flesh of sin, Romans 8:3 why should He not take upon Him the voice of sin? St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 50

JoeT

[N0help4u]

I have a hard time understanding the trinity.
I understand all the explanations but get confused when it comes to where was God when Jesus was in Mary's womb or when he was crucified and asked God where art thou?

I understand what Rev is saying but then would that mean God was confined to where Jesus was geographically and not in heaven during Jesus time on earth?

[xaiegen]

a)So what I'm hearing is if one's grandparent died, they are only your grandfather and nothing else? They can't have been a father or a husband, a brother or a child at one point? Each label having it's own set of responsibilities?

b) Another thing is you are open to the option of your grandfather's death being meaningless, did the life he lead while alive mean anything? Your grandfather could have been a TRUE hypocrite and followed the Jews of the time, not helping the sick on Sabbath, not curing poisonous food, not suggesting earth treasures be given up to follow God (one earth treasure is the very body he was and you are in). So, human sacrifice is forbidden by the Torah, but you forget the Romans could care less, Jesus was not destroying their ways, Jesus was destroying the Jewish practice of the time. Who felt threatened? The pharisees did, meaning the very same Jewish priests who condemned him to die just went against Torah law. Yay *clap to the true hypocrites once again*.

c)I will agree with pnkrkmama on this one. Taking a philosophical/psychological instead of theological approach, you seem the sort of person who has to believe with his eyes. Let me say that understanding using sensory perception does not make it truth. If I gouged your eyes out and ate it, will you stop believing the world has colors? Where do you place your faith in if you were similar to Helen Keller? Should you limit yourself due to your disability, which at this point is your inability to comprehend the full nature of a Divine being? If you can't understand create a neutrino metaphor (from science) or a -i (from math) to complete your faith.

What is logically incompatible about saying you don't know? Socrates did it, you can too. For that matter, him being God, why couldn't he resurrect himself? Don't forget he hated to leave the life he created for himself, hence him crying during prayer and his disciples sleeping through it.

You are trying to discredit his work, his life, his soul (Holy Spirit), his family (God the father, the son, the holy spirit). What do you want to support?

[N0help4u]

Me I am willing to go by faith, but when asked about the trinity it does get my head thinking.
The OP I don't think they want to support anything other than why they do not believe.

[ZachZ]

Also first you have to establish if the Bible MEANS or says that Jesus is fully God and/or fully man and not each simultaneously.

Some people say it is more like where the Bible says a husband and wife are one and they have a child then that is three and they are the Jones family which makes them 1.

This response fails because if a man is a husband and a father, then if you kill the husband, the father dies at the same time and is not available to resurrect the husband.

[ZachZ]

WOW you have a very warped view of things. I was raised with both parents having Masters in Theology. Jesus did not come to save our brains and give us infinite understanding He died for our soul/spirits. Therefore, if you try to approach this question and filter the infinite concept of God and man and the crucifiction through our limited understanding and mental capacity we will always end up in the dark and confused. The act of dying on the cross for our sins and bringing our souls to Himself in heaven and giving us an advocate, the Holy Spirit, is for your spirit to understand, grasp, and accept...yes, there is such a thing as spiritual understanding....Shutting your heart and allowing your head take over is only to YOUR detriment.. "For now we see in a miror dimly but soon face to face."

Why so hard and mad?

Your response is Answer C--"It's a mystery." You admit the logical impossibility but refuse to deal with it.

Perhaps your two parents with Masters degrees in Theology could answer this question?

[ZachZ]

If Christ was a man, he had both body and soul. If he was God, He IS. Therefore, both Jesus the man and Jesus the God were crucified. If it would be one or the other you have the conundrum referred to in the question. Our being consists of both body and soul. A being having both body and soul is why God promises us new bodies in heaven – we aren’t complete as beings without our bodies as spiritual beings.

JoeT

You don't answer the question -- DID GOD DIE? If so, who resurrected him? If not, what extraordinary sacrifice was there?

[ZachZ]

God's word makes it clear that "God raised Him from the dead". Answer A.

Rom 1:1-4 ...
What you are MISSING is that the Son of God, being the Son of God with all power and authority of God RAISED HIMSELF!
Read carefully:
...
"Simple logic" has to conclude that if it God Who raised Jesus the Christ.....and Jesus the Christ says that He raised Himself.........that Jesus the Christ MUST BE God.

Thank you for your genuine and honest attempt to resolve the dilemma.

Do you not see from your own answer that you contradict yourself?

How can a God who has been killed exist to 'raise himself'? If this God were still in existence, he was not truly killed, and therefore there was no sacrifice.

And when you say that "God raised Jesus the Christ" then you have made a material separation between the actor (God) and the object (Jesus) -- evidencing a separation between God and Jesus, effectively declaring that Jesus is not the same thing as God.

Along all these lines, your theology falls apart.

[ZachZ]

I have a hard time understanding the trinity.

ME TOO!! :p

[N0help4u]

So you have to have an answer for everything or you do not believe it
That is what I figured.
You are forgetting one thing though.
As far as death and dying, the husband dies therefore the father dies but the point is that their spirits never die are you including that in your reasoning to find an answer to a spiritual aspect??

Can you or anybody reason everything that you DO know that exists?