[savedsinner7]

Job 36:26
“Look, God is greater than we can understand.

Isaiah 40:21
Haven't you heard? Don't you understand?Are you deaf to the words of God—the words he gave before the world began?Are you so ignorant?


Isaiah 40:28
Have you never heard?Have you never understood?The Lord is the everlasting God,the Creator of all the earth.He never grows weak or weary.No one can measure the depths of his understanding.

Luke 8:10
He replied, “You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of God. But I use parables to teach the others so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled:'When they look, they won't really see.When they hear, they won't understand.'


Romans 10:3
For they don't understand God's way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God's way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God


Unless you are seriously seeking to find God, you will never understand His ways.

[De Maria]

Here's a question I've been asking that no Christian has ever been able to provide a satisfactory answer for that does not clearly violate simple rules of logic, or trinitarian Christian theology. I truly believe it's the kernel of truth that has the power to crack apart trinitarian Christianity.

Any Christian out there want to take a shot at it?

Sure. But before we do so, lets talk logic. Do you know the definition of a "loaded question"?

In other words, the question you have asked is not designed to obtain a true answer but devised in such a fashion that every answer which you can possibly conceive will justify or confirm your presupposition.

A very clear cut example is the question, "have you stopped beating your wife?"

Obviously, if you answer, "yes". You are guilty of beating your wife in the past.
And if you answer "no", you are guilty of still beating your wife.

How does one get out of such a dilemma when a loaded question is directed to them?

The way I do it is by going back to the beginning and redefining the question. For instance, if asked, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" I will answer, "I've never beaten my wife."

Lets review your question:

The question is:

"If Jesus is supposed to be fully man and fully God, and died on the cross... then WHO resurrected him?"

Answer A) is:
If you say "God the father resurrected him" then you prove that Jesus was NOT God in full because a separate God entity did the resurrecting. This violates the 'trinity.'

Answer B) is:
If you say "The God nature left Jesus" then you are essentially saying that God did NOT die, and the death of Jesus was no important sacrifice at all. A human man was tortured for a weekend and died. How is this supposed to atone for all the sins of humanity?

Not to mention that human sacrifice is explicitly forbidden by Torah, and the manner of death runs afoul of at least a dozen laws regarding kosher sin sacrifice: The death wasn't by kosher shecht (slaughter), the offering was not made at the Temple, the offering wasn't made by Temple priests, the body wasn't without physical blemish, etc. This makes Christianity a religion based upon an unkosher, human sacrifice.

Answer C) is:
If you say "It's a mystery" or "With God all things are possible" you are basically saying you have no answer and give up. You recognize the inherent contradiction but choose to pull the wool over your own eyes, and hope your brain never rejects the obvious, glaring logical incompatibility.

All 3 choices - A, B and C - crack apart the foundation of Christianity.

Now see, not only have you loaded the question but you've limited the possible number of responses you thought possible. However you are wrong because you know neither the power of God nor the Scriptures.

First of all, you have ignored the definition of death. What does it mean? If you die, what happens?

Well, your spirit separates from your body and you are dead because your body is no longer animated by your spirit.

But is your spirit dead? According to Catholic doctrine, your spirit continues to live in the after life. You are either:

1. In the presence of God in heaven. Heaven is known as the abundant life.
2. In the presence of God in Purgatory. Purgatory is a postponement of the abundant life, while your soul is purified.
3. Or in the absence of God in hell. Hell is called death because of the absence of God in your afterlife.

But your spirit continues to live and perceive the condition in which it exists.

So, what happened to Jesus on the Cross?

Jesus died because His body was no longer animated by His Spirit. Yet His Spirit continued to live and preached to the disobedient souls in prison. Therefore, God the Son died and yet could sustain the Universe. Because the death of a man is only the death of his body, not of his spirit.

Then His Body was glorified, joined to His Spirit and Resurrected.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[xaiegen]

Death is an ending for mortal beings, hence God killed the mortal portion of himself. As only a Divine being who set up the rules for death and why death was made necessary, only He can fix the wrongs by placing himself in our shoes and understanding us enough to go through the very process of dying we all must face one day.

When a snake sheds its skin, do you ignore the fact it did the act of shedding? No, it still shed nonetheless. When a God sheds it's human portion, do you ignore the fact he went through pain and sacrificed his human existence? No, he still sacrificed himself. Does he not leave a part of him behind, and transcends into a different more cleaner existence?

Questions to ask, what is death to an immortal being? Does it cheapen his act of dying because he has the ability to transcend past death and you, the mortal, does not? Couldn't God just abolish the very rules he made up and not deal with the idea of dying by extending himself in human form? On this yes it's possible he could, but then he wouldn't be playing fair in the game of Good v. Evil then would he?

[N0help4u]

Yeah De Marie explained better what I was saying about spirit continuing.

[JoeT777]

You don't answer the question -- DID GOD DIE? If so, who resurrected him? If not, what extraordinary sacrifice was there?

Death is a separation of body and soul. Christ the God, “Divinity which could not die, even still lay hid in the flesh of Him rising.” The body becomes corrupted: as it were "from dust to dust." Only that which is corruptible can die, God is not corruptible and as such cannot die in the sense of becoming corrupt. Christ's soul slept. Lazarus had died; his body started the process of corruption, as soul slept. As an example, Jesus explained that, “Lazarus our friend sleepeth: but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.” John 11:11. Upon being resurrected, Chist's body's was re-united with the soul. Thus, both died, God and man,


But flesh had risen, because flesh had been dead: Divinity which could not die, even still lay hid in the flesh of Him rising. Form could be seen, limbs held, scars handled: the Word by whom all things were made, who does see? who does hold? who does handle? And yet the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us. John 1:14 And Thomas, that was holding Man, understood God as he was able. For when he had handled the scars, he cried out, My Lord, and my God. Yet the Lord was showing that form, and that flesh, which they had seen upon the Cross, which had been laid in the sepulchre. He stayed with them forty days....But what was said to Thomas handling? Because you have seen, you have believed; blessed are they that see not, and believe. John 20:29 We are foretold. That world called from the rising of the sun unto the going down sees not, and believes. Hidden then is the God of gods, both to those among whom He walked, and to those by whom He was crucified, and to those before whose eyes He rose, and to us who believe in Him in heaven sitting, whom we have not seen on earth walking. But even if we were to see, should we not see that which the Jews saw and crucified? It is more, that not seeing we believe Christ to be God, than that they seeing deemed Him only to be man. They in a word by thinking evil slew, we by believing well are made alive. St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 50

The extraordinary sacrifice was for a God who is all good to have taken on and experience sin (death of the soul). But, not just the sin of one man, Adam. He took on and experienced the totality of sin. That's why St. Augustine said took on the same abandonment caused by death. To paraphrase St. Augustine, He received what I (we) ought.

JoeT

[N0help4u]

Okay another question is if Jesus is fully God and God fully Jesus then where does the 3 come in other than the three distinct *functions* they represent?

[De Maria]

N0help4u agrees: I DO have to give you a greenie for the LOADED question explanation!

Gee thanks! I live for greenies!

[savedsinner7]

Okay another question is if Jesus is fully God and God fully Jesus then where does the 3 come in other than the three distinct *functions* they represent?

Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, The Truth of Jesus, in every place, living in His followers, advancing the Kingdom of God.

[Fr_Chuck]

You are correct it is beyond human logic, but then God is all powerful and to be honest does not have to fit into any mold or rules that man wants to put on him. So how can he be, he can because he is,

Sorry if you can't merely accept this truth, but then if you can have no problem with raising from the dead, ( which is against all human understanding) the trinity has little trouble being believed.

[cogs]

Jesus had the power to raise the dead. He also kept repeating that he had a father.
Also, Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
And, Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

So, something more than jesus is going on: a father who is a spirit, and a power that can resurrect the dead through jesus, and a comforter who is the spirit of truth that proceeds from the father, that's given to us.
So there's something that involves jesus, but is apart from him at the same time. So it seems that, when jesus died, a part still existed. That tells me that flesh can die, but an intelligent direction of power never dies. We do not know what spirit is, yet:
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

[ZachZ]

jesus had the power to raise the dead. he also kept repeating that he had a father.
also, Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
and, Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

so, something more than jesus is going on: a father who is a spirit, and a power that can resurrect the dead through jesus, and a comforter who is the spirit of truth that proceeds from the father, that's given to us.
so there's something that involves jesus, but is apart from him at the same time. so it seems that, when jesus died, a part still existed. that tells me that flesh can die, but an intelligent direction of power never dies. we do not know what spirit is, yet:
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You then admit that Jesus is not "fully God." If there are Divine elements that exist outside Jesus, in your theology, God is not ONE but is split up into pieces and parts spread out over several "persons." According to mainstream trinitarian Christianity, you are a heretic.

[ZachZ]

Will address other posts soon...

[cogs]

You then admit that Jesus is not "fully God." If there are Divine elements that exist outside Jesus, in your theology, God is not ONE but is split up into pieces and parts spread out over several "persons." According to mainstream trinitarian Christianity, you are a heretic.

I don't mind being called names by any sect.
Jesus had no sin, because he was a perfect, unblemished sacrifice, just like in the old testament. Except he was human, and no human was an acceptable sacrifice for the world's sin, like jesus.
I don't see a split in god's being, because his spirit is able to permeate even our flesh. Jesus sent god's spirit to live in us. In us is within. He didn't become another spleen or something, but it's spiritual, with the power to not only change us, but in jesus, the power to heal.
Again, there's an intelligent direction of power that's always there. I don't know where god ends and jesus begins, but I'm more concerned with the purposes of god, which is to bring us to himself. Not only that, but since jesus was a sinless sacrifice, then he was pure. I believe that's why he sent his spirit in us, to purify us. I think this is what god requires of us. Thank god that that power is available, else we'd never be able to please god.

[revdrgade]

Thank you for your genuine and honest attempt to resolve the dilemma.

Do you not see from your own answer that you contradict yourself?

How can a God who has been killed exist to 'raise himself'? If this God were still in existence, he was not truly killed, and therefore there was no sacrifice.

And when you say that "God raised Jesus the Christ" then you have made a material separation between the actor (God) and the object (Jesus) -- evidencing a separation between God and Jesus, effectively declaring that Jesus is not the same thing as God.

Along all these lines, your theology falls apart.

No, I see no contradiction at all. Jesus said in one of the passages I sent to you that He and the Father were one and that He, Jesus Christ, raised Himself... as God, not an avatar nor an "actor", but God Himself.

He was never separate from the Father but whole fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him:

Col 2:9-10

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
NIV

Do you agree that God alone is the head over every power and authority? Or does your logic allow there to be two heads?

The One we call the Son of God was always God. But as promised in Isaiah. The child Who is born of a woman and thus has a human nature and Who is the Son given by the Father in whom His whole Deity dwells bodily. Notice He is also called "Mighty God" and even "Wonderful Couselor" = the Holy Spirit of God that Jesus promised would be sent when He, Jesus, ascended back into heaven.

Isa 9:6-7
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.
NIV

There is no contradiction in my argument. It is in perfect agreement with God's Word that the Son of God came from God in order to save sinners and having accomplished this in His death and resurrection, He returned to Heaven that His glory which He set aside in taking on human flesh might be complete again.


John 1:14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father , full of grace and truth.
NIV

John 16:27-28
27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."
NIV

1 John 4:1-3
2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
NIV

2 John 7
7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh , have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
NIV

[cogs]

I can understand your dilemma in the seeming division of jesus and god. We're not going to find out how jesus was resurrected, so we'll have to take that one on faith, until god provides that answer. Lol thomas was shown the nail scars, so the fact that jesus was resurrected is quite enough. When jesus did his miracles, I'm sure he didn't want people obsessing over how they were done, but jesus always pointed them to his message, with the signs following. In other words, don't get caught up in it, see the miracle and accept its message.

[N0help4u]

Look at it as a spiritual oneness and God is omni present and Jesus was his bodily form.
God in a sense is even IN us.

[ZachZ]

Death is a separation of body and soul.

This is interesting. So what use does God have for a 'soul'? A soul is something that only humans need.

Christ’s soul slept.

This indicates again that Jesus was not God. Only humans have souls. God has no need for a soul.

The extraordinary sacrifice was for a God who is all good to have taken on and experience sin (death of the soul). But, not just the sin of one man, himself. He took on and experienced the totality of sin.

You are saying Jesus sinned?

[N0help4u]

This indicates again that Jesus was not God. Only humans have souls. God has no need for a soul.

You are saying Jesus sinned?

That is no different than saying God did not need flesh to come to earth as a human through Jesus.

Why would that be saying Jesus sinned? Do you know what a soul is?

[ZachZ]

No, I see no contradiction at all.

Perhaps in time you will see.

Jesus said in one of the passages I sent to you that He and the Father were one and that He, Jesus Christ, raised Himself....as God, not an avatar nor an "actor", but God Himself.

This is Answer B: No true Divine sacrifice; un-kosher human sacrifice. And doesn't the question even enter your mind: "How can something which has supposedly died resuscitate itself? If it can, was there ever a true 'death' in the first place?"

Do you agree that God alone is the head over every power and authority? Or does your logic allow there to be two heads?

God is ONE. Not two, not three, no multi-headed "Godhead". God is ONE, period.

But as promised in Isaiah...

I don't wish to de-rail this thread by going off on well-worn tangents about common misunderstandings and misapplications of the writings in Nevi'im and Ketuvim.

There is no contradiction in my arguement. It is in perfect agreement with God's Word that <snip> John ... <snip>

This is a whole other topic with its own problems, but irrelevant to this thread.

Can you please address the contradiction in the OP.

[JoeT777]

The extraordinary sacrifice was for a God who is all good to have taken on and experience sin (death of the soul). But, not just the sin of one man, himself. He took on and experienced the totality of sin.

You are saying Jesus sinned?

I’m at work and can only pilfer a few minutes at a time. I’ll respond one question at a time. I’ll start with the last because I didn’t make my meaning clear (my fault).

The comment “not just the sin of one man” was made in context of St. Augustine’s Exposition on Psalm 54. It was meant to be quantitative, not qualitative. I understand St. Augustine to be saying that any man, any one man, experiencing temporal tribulations, will cry out “My God, my God, why have You forsaken me.” So, wouldn’t Christ, the man, (sinless) suffer total abandonment just for the quantity of one man’s sin; how much more abandonment would he suffer for all of mankind’s sin?

In that regard if possible I’ll revise that sentence to read, ”But, not just the sin of one man, Adam” to mean any man numbering one.

JoeT