[De Maria]

No. It is the belief of the Catholic Church that Peter was the rock. No Protestant church body agrees with that. Protestants believe the Church is founded on Jesus Christ, the Rock.

But your Protestant belief goes against Scripture. Because Jesus said:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Wondergirl]

But your Protestant belief goes against Scripture. Because Jesus said:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Sincerely,

De Maria

No, the Catholic belief goes against Scripture. Yes, Jesus said:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus was referring to Himself as "this Rock." Otherwise He would have said "upon thee." Jesus knew grammar perfectly.

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock [points to Himself] I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

[JoeT777]

May God reveal the Truth to each reader. When Peter is called the rock, it is because Peter is baptized and walks in Perfect Faith, believing in Christ Jesus as Our Lord and Saviour.
Those that are baptized walk in Christ and with Christ, believing in the Saviour of the World.


Peter was asked by Jesus...

1.Peter, Do you love Me? Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee.

2. Peter, Do you love Me? Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee.

3. Peter, Do you love Me? Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee

We now walk as Peter did, in Christ... Do you Love Christ? YES Lord, above all.


By choice in mind and heart of Free Will... Who do you follow? Christ Jesus, The Rock

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1 Sam 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.

Choice? Do you believe Our Father's Word?

(John 21:15 John 21:16 John 21:17)

It seems to me that breaking down Matthew 16:16-19 into their essential elements we have the following bits of fact:

1. Christ was the authority
2. Christ knew Peter’s revelation that Jesus was God, recognizing the supernatural source of his faith
3. Christ named Simon Bar-Jona to “Rock” The title of Peter's office.
4. Peter was handed the authority and designated as the “foundation” on which Christ builds his Church.
5. The gates of hell won’t prevail over the Church
6. The keys to bind and loosen where given to Peter.

In this we see the classic transfer of power from a more authoritative source to a lesser authority. Christ has the authority to give Peter a subservient role. In so doing, Peter is given a title, “the Rock” on which he can rely on. Such as when the boss walks though the office, decides the firm has grown large enough that he needs a manager for the clerical staff. He has the authority, (in this case, the pay check). Giving them a title, he names somebody the “office manager”. The only thing left is the wherewithal to accomplish the goal, founding and building a Church. This is done with the keys. In the keys are the powers with which Peter needs to accomplish his assigned goals; the power to bind and loosen – in heaven or on earth. Just as our “office manager” must have the wherewithal to run the clerical department, the key is the paychecks for the clerks (the clerk not following the guidelines of the manager finds himself without a check).

I took the long way to explain the elements of any chain of command. The authority must designate who has power, the extent of that power, and must provide the wherewithal to accomplish the goals. We see all of this in Matthew 16.

Thus, Peter was given a title of for his office, a mission to accomplish, and the wherewithal to achieve his goal. Only the most convoluted logic can come to any other conclusion from this passage. Peter was our first Pope!

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Peter was our first Pope!

That's very nice. He wasn't ours.

[jakester]

ZachZ -

You seem like someone who likes to understand how things work, etc. What puzzles me though is, for a person who clearly thinks Christianity is foolish (or at least Christians are for believing it), why do you really care what they believe? So you think they are dumb for not seeing the "glaring logical incompatibility" of the resurrection, etc. So let them be dumb and not worry about it.

It seems to me that you really have an unchecked ego and are very proud of the intellectual ability that you have. It's OK to be confident in one's ability but to then turn on others and attempt to belittle them and at the same time exalt yourself is hardly an attribute to be proud of.

I guess in one sense I truly appreciate your willingness to be critical in your thinking but in another sense I truly fear that your disdain for God and Jesus Christ is so glaringly apparent that perhaps you have already dug your grave. Truly, I hope that you do not remain hard in your heart and "crucify afresh the Son of God."

[arcura]

De Maria,
When I was a Protestant I did not believe many things about the Catholic Church.
When I started seriously studying it and why they believed as they did compared to the bible I became convinced that the Catholic church was right time after time again.
My story is not unusual. Since I converted over 30 years ago I have met many people whose story is very similar and some of them are former Protestant ministers.
Peter IS the Rock on which Jesus built His Church and though many over the years have tried to stop it, it coninues to grow world wide.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

[maje3]

Wondergirl, you are cracking me up with your last comment.

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl, you are cracking me up with your last comment.

Thanks for acknowleging me. (At least ONE person noticed I'm in the room.)

[JoeT777]

No, the Catholic belief goes against Scripture. Yes, Jesus said:

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus was referring to Himself as "this Rock." Otherwise He would have said "upon thee." Jesus knew grammar perfectly.

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock [points to Himself] I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Ok, let’s look at the plan language of the verse. In the plain language of today, the simple meaning of the verse 18 becomes: because this was revealed to you by God, I will call you Peter (which means rock) and on this Rock of faith I will build my church; hell won’t prevail against it. And because my identity as the Messiah was revealed to you by God I’ll give you the key to heaven.

Now we’ll redo in plain language of today with Christ as a Rock: because this was revealed to you by God, I will call you Peter (which means rock) and on ME (or on My Faith) I will build my church; hell won’t prevail against it. And because my identity as the Messiah was revealed to you by God I’ll give you the key to heaven.

The second rendition just doesn’t make plain sense, its contorted. Why would Christ build a Church on Himself because Peter had a revelation from God as to Christ's identity? Secondly, again in the second version, why would Christ build a Church on Himself and give Peter the Keys? Thirdly, if the intent was for Christ to build a Church, why not say, I’m the Messiah as it was revealed to you Simon, therefore I’m building a Church - why even mention turning Simon into a Rock?


JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Ok, let's look at the plan language of the verse

"on this Rock of faith I will build my church" -- yes, on faith on Him, on Jesus Christ.

Peter had denied Jesus thrice, not a good bet for church building.

The Church is built on Jesus Christ. Yes, please do look at the plain language of the verse. Then get back to me.

[maje3]

Peter may be meant by the rock, but he is not the exclusive foundation. For the twelvefold foundation of the apostles of the church, see Ephesians 2:20 and Revelation 21:14. The rock or foundation of the church is the confession ( ultimately the doctrine ) of the apostles, which became normative for the true church. Notice Jesus called Peter the rock after He asked him who he is.

[JoeT777]

De Maria,
When I was a Protestant I did not believe many things about the Catholic Church.
When I started seriously studying it and why they believed as they did compared to the bible I became convinced that the Catholic Church was right time after time again.
My story is not unusual. Since I converted over 30 years ago I have met many people whose story is very similar and some of them are former Protestant ministers.
Peter IS the Rock on which Jesus built His Church and though many over the years have tried to stop it, it continues to grow worldwide.
Peace and kindness,
Fred.

Great comments.

I don’t know if you’re a Chesterton fan; but he seems to be able to explain how the conscientious man attempting to be just to the Church finds himself trapped with the truth of it all. I’ve been Catholic all my life- except for a few crazy years as a young adult. But, never the less I’ve found that the “trap” works on cradle Catholics too.

“It is impossible to be just to the Catholic Church. The moment men cease to pull against it they feel a tug towards it. The moment they cease to shout it down they begin to listen to it with pleasure. The moment they try to be fair to it they begin to be fond of it. But when that affection has passed a certain point it begins to take on the tragic and menacing grandeur of a great love affair. The man has exactly the same sense of having committed or compromised himself; of having been in a sense entrapped, even if he is glad to be entrapped. But for a considerable time he is not so much glad as simply terrified. It may be that this real psychological experience has been misunderstood by stupider people and is responsible for all that remains of the legend that Rome is a mere trap. But that legend misses the whole point of the psychology. It is not the Pope who has set the trap or the priests who have baited it. The whole point of the position is that the trap is simply the truth. The whole point is that the man himself has made his way towards the trap of truth, and not the trap that has run after the man. All steps except the last step he has taken eagerly on his own account, out of interest in the truth; and even the last step, or the last stage, only alarms him because it is so very true. G.K. Chesterton

JoeT

[Fr_Chuck]

The trouble is we can not just look at the "plain" language, we have to look at the greek used, and even to the point of how the words are used to get their true meanings.

I would get into it, but as with too many theadss like this, it has gone its life.

Thread closed.