[BABRAM]

I'm speaking of the satellite state, now country, of the former USSR, that's struggling toward a faint resemblance of democracy, but just had it's doors kicked in by Russia. Well since under Dubya we've become the world's police, many Republicans don't care for the UNs input, we continue two wars, and some hardened McCain supporters have shown outright disdain for Obama's communication skills that would be reasonably be used in diplomacy... so what's it going to be? Would John McCain send American troops to help the small country of Georgia?


The Associated Press: McCain, Obama urge halt to fighting in Georgia

"DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) — The major candidates for president on Friday called on Russia and Georgia to end their military action and appealed for more diplomatic efforts aimed at avoiding a full-scale war.

Republican John McCain said Russia should withdraw its forces. Democrat Barack Obama condemned the violence and urged the two sides to show restraint.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili has long pledged to take back control of South Ossetia, which battled Georgia for de facto independence in fighting that ended in 1992. On Friday, Moscow sent tanks into the region when Georgia launched a major military offensive to retake the breakaway province.

Campaigning in Iowa, McCain told reporters that the U.S. should convene an emergency session of the U.N. Security Council to resolve the crisis.

"What's most critical now is to avoid further confrontation between Russian and Georgian military forces," McCain said.

The U.S. should work with the European Union to put diplomatic pressure on Russia and help establish an independent peacekeeping force in South Ossetia, McCain said.

Obama, speaking to reporters during a flight to Hawaii for a vacation, said he's getting regular updates on the violence. He said it's important for the United States to work with international partners to end the conflict.

"I wholeheartedly condemn the violation of Georgia's sovereignty. I think it is important at this point for all sides to show restraint and to stop this arms conflict. Georgia's territorial integrity needs to be preserved and now is the time for direct talks," he said during a refueling stop in Sacramento, Calif."

[tomder55]

What do you think ? Should we ? To tell you the truth ;Georgia is very close to becoming a NATO member .If that had already occurred then the NATO treaty would've kicked in and we would already be at war with Russia.

To me there is a broader issue here than the fate of the South Ossetia region.Georgia is the nation in the path of a pipeline from the Caspian Sea to the Turkish port of Ceyhan ;a pipeline that does not cross Russian territory.
Russia would like to control the energy supply in Central Asia ,and the flow of energy to Europe,. especially to former satellite states like Ukraine. Their claim that they want to
Defend compatriots is b.s. I find it quite a coincident that this Russian move occurred so soon after the PKK attack on the Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan pipeline.

The Russians have bombed the air bases where more than 1000 US Marines and special forces are currently stationed in order to train the Georgia military. George also has cooperated in the war against jihadistan having troops in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

I do not know how far American involvement will go ;or if there should be any American involvement beyond diplomatic . There is a certain logic in saying that Russia should just be allowed to absorb the South Ossetia region given the number of ethnic Russians living there... the same logic that justified the German invasion of Czechoslovakia.

OK to contrast the statements by the Presidential Candidates .Since this is that 3 AM moment that Evita was talking about.

McCain :"Russian should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all force from sovereign Georgian territory."


Obama :"Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war..."

McCain demands that Russia cease fire immediately and get out of Georgia.
Obama asks the invaded sovereign state of Georgia, our ally, NATO applicant, freedom-loving and critical energy state with combat brigades in Afghanistan and in Iraq to help America, with over 1000 U.S. military in harm's way at airbases that have already been bombed by Russia,to show restraint when it is attacked by the Russian army and airpower? So who is the better candidate for President based on this issues ? You decide.

To me the critical difference in their statements is that McCain would signal to Europe a return to the Ameircan leadership of the 1940s and 50's . I read Obama as being willing to accept a Finlandization for Europe by a re-emerging Russian petrol-superstate .

[Credendovidis]

·
The confrontation between Georgia and South Ossetia is the direct result of the increasing skirmishing and confrontation between US and Russian interests in that region.

The last Russia needs is a second Chechenia on it's doorstep.
All US efforts to offer Georgia membership of Nato should be halted asap.

Personally I have little against either Georgia and/or South Ossetia.
But neither do I see any reason to provoke Russia in that region.

:rolleyes:

·

[excon]

...OK to contrast the statements by the Presidential Candidates .Since this is that 3 AM moment that Evita was talking about.

McCain :"Russian should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all force from sovereign Georgian territory."

Obama :"Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war..."

McCain demands that Russia cease fire immediately and get out of Georgia.
Obama asks the invaded sovereign state of Georgia, our ally, NATO applicant, freedom-loving and critical energy state with combat brigades in Afghanistan and in Iraq to help America, with over 1000 U.S. military in harm's way at airbases that have already been bombed by Russia,to show restraint when it is attacked by the Russian army and airpower?.

Hello tom:

It IS a 3:00 AM moment as far as I'm concerned, so it's OK with me. Russia has attacked our allie! My question is what does the dufus in chief do about it?? While Putin, (whom the dufus looked into his eyes and liked what he saw there), went home to make war on Europe, the dufus took pictures with the volley ball girls??

OMG!! This is like him being notified that Al Qaeda is going to attack us a whole month before they did, and the dufus did NOTHING. This is like doing NOTHING about Katrina except flying over New Orleans and clucking his tongue. This is LIKE the dufus letting Bin Laden get away scott free, and NOT caring a hoot about it!!

If you're not scared now, while the dufus is running things, YOU SHOULD BE!! Is McSame much different?? I don't think so!

excon

PS> By the way, Obama came around after he came to his senses.

PPS> Another, by the way tom, remember those 1,000's of Russian nuclear missiles pointed at us, that you said we didn't have to worry about? Want to rethink that position??

[tomder55]

Ex you mean Obama flipped again ?

I will get back to you after I have studied the situation further . I do not pretend to know all thje details but it appears to me to be much more complicated than a simple territorial dispute.

As for President Bush ; he has a Russian expert as his Sec. State. It is not relevant that he spent a weekend watching sports in China.

As for those nukes, we have been in more tense situations with Russia before and the exchange of nukes did not occure. Unlike the rogue states of the Mahdi Hatter and Kim jong Mentally Il , I think the Ruskies are still playing with a full deck.

I think we also have consider our quick and unthought out position in my view of our recognition of Kosovo's independence .Lech Walesa warned us back in Feb. what might happen if we were too quick to recognize Kosovo's split from Serbia.

If Russia can use that as an excuse for aggression against her former satellites then Easter Ukraine ,Belarus ,Chechnya, Tatarstan, the Bashkorts ;all with ethinic Russian populations are threatened .

But Russia should reconsider it's position also . There are still many non-ethnic Russians living inside territorial Russia. Their justification for aggression could easily be turned on them internally. They have a bigger concern with the jihadists threat then we do. This could be their quagmire.

Like I said ;there is more to this than meets the eyes . It is good that Obama flipped and now is on the same page with the US position . Let him enjoy his Mai-tai and body surfing for a week and let the real leaders handle this.

[BABRAM]

What do you think ? Should we ?
OK to contrast the statements by the Presidential Candidates .Since this is that 3 AM moment that Evita was talking about..

Yes. And let's look at it once again in context...


McCain :"Russian should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all force from sovereign Georgian territory."

Unconditionally?? Bwa ha ha ha! Or what?? At 3 a.m. McCain will send the next generation of young Americans into WWIII.


Obama :"Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war..."


That's the intelligent level headed response I'd hoped for! And Excon is correct. Only naïve people think that Russia doesn't have nuclear warheads. Listen, if I'm looking for a fight I want it on my terms. Good for Obama.

It is good that Obama flipped and now is on the same page with the US position . Let him enjoy his Mai-tai and body surfing for a week and let the real leaders handle this.

Don't confuse your "real leader," for real leadership. Dubya's not the US public's view of a "we the people" leader by any stretch of the imagination. However the good news is that he will retire to his Crawford Ranch soon with a photo album of volleyball Olympians, hopefully to never be involved in government decision making again.

[Galveston1]

Er, wasn't it Clinton that let Bin Laden get away?

[BABRAM]

Er, wasn't it Clinton that let Bin Laden get away?

You're a bit off the posted subject, but to answer your question, yes. Clinton was too busy with Monika Lewinsky to care. The culprits that nurtured Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan, that in return provided us with the Hussein's, and Bin Laden's, (and other such ilk of the future) are none other than our elected officials from the 1980's: George Herbert Walker Bush

[tomder55]

That's the intelligent level headed response I'd hoped for!

If that is the case then why did he flip and make a completely different response in less than 48 hrs? Obama's new response (after the Mai Tai wore off )
[“I condemn Russia's aggressive actions and reiterate my call for an immediate ceasefire,”.....
“Russia must stop its bombing campaign, cease flights of Russian aircraft in Georgian airspace, and withdraw its ground forces from Georgia.”]


At least McCain (who has spoken to Georgian President Saakashvili at least twice this weekend) showed immediately that he understood the difference between an aggressor and a victim.Note that after he had time to think about it and put his finger in the air BO sounded very much like Sen. McCain.

Here is the joint statement of other former Russian dominated nations :

We, the leaders of the former captive nations from Eastern Europe and current members of the European Union and NATO– Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland – are extremely concerned about the actions of the Russian Federation against Georgia.

We strongly condemn the actions by the Russian military forces against the sovereign and independent country of Georgia.

Following the unilateral military actions of the Russian military forces, we will use all means available to us as Presidents to ensure that aggression against a small country in Europe will not be passed over in silence or with meaningless statements equating the victims with the victimizers. To this end we intend to urge our governments to take the following positions in discussions and to raise these concerns in the European Union and the North Atlantic Council:

* Can the current Russian authorities be called adequate strategic partners of the EU;
* Can the family of European democratic countries pursue a mutually beneficial dialogue with a country that uses heavy military armour against an independent country;
* It is pointlessness to continue a “visa facilitation” program with a country that does not meet even the minimal requirements set by the EU and which uses visa facilitation to issue Russian Federation passports to foreigners and then abuses this EU given privilege to claim intervention rights such as "we are protecting Russian citizens" in South Ossetia.
* The actions of the Russian Federation in Georgia should influence the talks with the Russian Federation, including negotiations on the new Partnership and Cooperation Agreement.

We underline the obvious bankruptcy of Russian “peacekeeping operations” in its immediate neighbourhood. The Russian Federation has overstepped a red-line in keeping the peace and stability in the conflict zone and in protecting Russian citizens outside its own borders.

The EU and NATO must take the initiative and stand-up against the spread of imperialist and revisionist policy in the East of Europe. New international peacekeeping forces should be created as the current setting proved to be ineffective.

We regret that not granting of the NATO's Membership Action Plan (MAP) to Georgia was seen as a green light for agression in the region.

We believe that the EU and NATO as the key organizations for European and Transatlantic stability and security should play a leading and crucial role in securing freedom, security and prosperity of countries not only in the EU but also in the neighboring European area.

It a litmus-test for the credibility of the EU and NATO to solve the conflict in its immediate neighborhood and to prove for all EU and NATO members, aspirant countries and democratic partners that it is worth being members and partners of these organizations.

This Declaration is open for the accession by the leaders of other democratic countries.

President of the Republic of Estonia Toomas Hendrik Ilves
President of the Republic of Latvia Valdis Zatlers
President of the Republic of Lithuania Valdas Adamkus
President of the Republic of Poland Lech Kaczyński

georgiandaily.com - Joint statement on Georgia-Russia War by Presidents of Poland, Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania

In the White House, there is no time for speeches and on the job training. Senator McCain will bring a time of experience to the campaign. I will bring a lifetime of experience and Senator Obama will bring a speech he gave in 2002. I think that is a significant difference. I think that since we now know Senator Mc Cain will be the nominee for the party, national security will be front and center in this election. We all know that. And I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the commander in chief threshold. And I believe that I have done that. Certainly Senator McCain has done that. And you will have to ask Senator Obama with respect to his candidacy."

Evita statement to CNN 3/8/08

There is much more to this issue than petty domestic politics. But you brought it up so the question for the American people is ;who is better equipt to lead America during these quick changing international crisis ?

Let's put it this way ; BO is Chair of the Foreign Relations subcommittee on European Affairs . Why has he not called his committee into a special session ? His vacation ?For that matter ;why has he not held even one committee meeting since he threw his hat in the ring ?

[tomder55]

All US efforts to offer Georgia membership of Nato should be halted asap.

Or it could be the delaying the entry of Georgia was taken as a green light by the Ruskies for this aggression .

[Skell]

I thought you guys would like John "shoot from the hip" McCain's response! It sounds so similar to what Georgey boy would say. He rescheduled his day so he was the first to comment on it. It sounded rushed to me as well!

P.S. If I had a choice I'd be perving on those volley ball girls too.

[George_1950]

Morris had an interesting insight on OReilley: tell Putin to get the Ruskies out of Georgia and respect its territorial integrity, or Ukraine gets quick entry into NATO. Of course, we don't know anything about what is going on behind the scenes, but Putin is obviously a punk and a bully. And now he is on the radar in a major way.

[tomder55]

Is this a coincidence ?

WASHINGTON (AP) — With a crisis of Cold War proportions brewing, President Bush demanded that Russia withdraw its troops from the former Soviet republic of Georgia.
Hours later, Russian President Dmitri Medvedev ordered a halt to the military action,

The Associated Press: Bush warns Russia; Medvedev orders halt to action

[excon]

Hello tom:

Boy, if the dufus in chief can stop world war III with just a phone call, then I've misjudged him.

Bwa, ha ha ha ha.

excon

[tomder55]

Here is part of his statement . Keep in mind that the word "must " carries a lot of weight in diplomatic lingo :

Russia's government must respect Georgia's territorial integrity and sovereignty. The Russian government must reverse the course it appears to be on, and accept this peace agreement as a first step toward resolving this conflict.
RealClearPolitics - Articles - President Bush's Statement on Georgia

Personally I think there is more to it than this of course. For one thing I think the Ruskies have had a harder time of it than is being reported .

[BABRAM]

If that is the case then why did he flip and make a completely different response in less than 48 hrs? Obama's new response (after the Mai Tai wore off )
[“I condemn Russia's aggressive actions and reiterate my call for an immediate ceasefire,”.....

“Russia must stop its bombing campaign, cease flights of Russian aircraft in Georgian airspace, and withdraw its ground forces from Georgia.”

His first reply was right on and his second was more stern. So? That's what Reagan used to do. That's not a flip-flop. Did Obama say that he was giving up diplomacy for warfare?? Of course not. Obama's going to continue down a path of diplomacy and other non-war like avenues, and McCain for all his bluster will either follow Obama's lead or cause WWIII, so which one do you want, Tom??

[tomder55]

Obama's lead?? That was good for a belly laugh. His reliance on a European style soft diplomacy is very dangerous . I hope if he ever becomes President he grows up.

[NeedKarma]

I hope if he ever becomes President he grows up.

He will. McCain on the other hand is ill and his faculties are failing.

[speechlesstx]

Accoridng to Va Gov Tim Kaine, Russia complied with Obama's request.

"I think the senator's goal was to be tough and smart ... and I'm very, very happy that the senator's request for a cease-fire has been complied with" [by the Russians].

LOL. Yeah, that's it, the Russkies complied with Obama's tough, smart request. You got to hand it to the Dems, they have a really big set of... egos :rolleyes:

[excon]

Hello again:

Ok, we've established that the dufus didn't do it (at least to MY satisfaction). Obama didn't do it. Fer sure, McCain didn't do it. Who did?

excon