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malcolmt · Aug 9, 2008, 11:02 AM

I have an IKEA farmhouse style white ceramic sink it is the "DOMSJO" double bowl model.
The sink only came with one opening for the combo hot and cold water faucet and this is installed okay. My problem is now with the dishwasher drain line. I live in California and I believe code requires an air vent in the drain line between the dishwasher and the garbage disposal under the sink. Since I have no available opening in my sink I am going to have to drill a hole in the top of the sink to install an air vent. The sink cost is about $400 and it is installed in a granite counter top. Needless to say I have to drill the sink very carefully. Has anyone seen this before or had any experience with this problem?:eek:

speedball1 · Aug 9, 2008, 11:30 AM

Ya just don't go drilling into a $400 ceramic sink. You install the air gap on the countertop.(see image). But if the job won't be inspected I have a better way that doesn't include drilling anything and will give you less service problems then a countertop air gap. This has been proven by the number of complaints we get on counter top air gaps against the zero complaints we get on high loop air gaps. High loop air gaps are used everywhere except in Cal or places that fall under the UPC Plumbing Code. Now growler and Milo won't agree, (because I'm going against their code) but I'm going to show you how to install a high loop air gap,(see image) that will be trouble free for the life of the dishwasher. Take the dishwasher hose and loop it up as high as it will go under the cabinet. Secure it up there with a pipe strap or band iron and then down to connect into the disposal or a branch tailpiece, (see image). That's all there is to it. No holes! No chance of ruining a costly sink or counter top and a air gap that has been proven to give less problems then a counter top one. A win-win situation don't you think? Good luck, tom

Milo Dolezal · Aug 9, 2008, 04:41 PM

I would not try to drill the sink. It may be impossible to do with Home Depot type tools. I would rather drill into granite counter top on side of the sink. Or omit the air gap completely.

This is the problem purchasing Ikea plumbing fixtures. They don't follow US dimensions and Codes.

Unfortunately, air gaps are strictly enforced in California.

speedball1 · Aug 9, 2008, 05:58 PM

Now there you go again! Millo, don't you agree that this is his easiest and best shot? If not why not? Besides the dreaded UPC. Are you guys really forced to pull a permit when you install a dishwasher? Cheers, Tom

Milo Dolezal · Aug 9, 2008, 06:47 PM

Tom: By Law, you are required to purchase City Permit for every project worth $100.00 or more.

iamgrowler · Aug 9, 2008, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by speedball1

Now there you go again! Millo, don't you agree that this is his easiest and best shot?

Easiest isn't always best, Tom.

If not why not?

Well, aside from creating an unsanitary condition, it would also be considered unlawful, Tom.

I sometimes wonder if you fully understand the repercussions of advising a poster to circumvent local codes.

When a municipality adopts a code, Tom, that code is codified as law, which means one can be prosecuted or levied fines if the code is abrogated.

Besides the dreaded UPC. Are you guys really forced to pull a permit when you install a dishwasher? Cheers, Tom

The OP is doing more than installing a dishwasher, Tom -- He is also installing a sink.

malcolmt · Aug 9, 2008, 08:46 PM

Thanks everyone for such a quick response.
The drain loop under the counter certainly works fine for me. The problem is when or if I try and sell the house I'm sure the inspector is going to want to see an air gap installed in that Dishwasher drain. So it looks like the best option is to go through the granite next to the sink, and hope that will meet the code.

Milo Dolezal · Aug 9, 2008, 08:50 PM

Malcolmt: Or you can do the "loop" instalation for now and when you are ready to sell your house then have a hole drilled in granite and install Air Gap. It is not a big project to do and will require only a Service Call type visit from your local plumber.

speedball1 · Aug 10, 2008, 05:14 AM

Originally Posted by speedball1
Now there you go again! Millo, don't you agree that this is his easiest and best shot?
Easiest isn't always best, Tom.

It is in this case growler. You and I have been over this road before. It's a proven fact that a high loop gives less problems then a counter top air gap.
A quick check of complaints about counter top air gaps as per against complaints against high loops on this page will bear me out.

I sometimes wonder if you fully understand the repercussions of advising a poster to circumvent local codes.

This forum isn't about keeping a asker within code. It's about giving them the easiest solution to their problems. Case in point! A asker with a 100 year old farmhouse has a blockage in his kitchen sink. I find out that the house was plumbed back in the 1890's with "S" traps throughout. Now what am I going to do? Insist that he repipe all of the drainage that has been working for the last 100 years to bring his house up to code or do I instruct him how to clear the blockage?
I've been trying to get you West Coast guys to think outside the box on this page and to look beyond the code. Be a little more flexable in your answers but you hang tough to UPC and I'm fighting a losing battle here. Like I said, the Plumbing Page isn't about bringing the entire nation up to code, it's about solving a askers problem the fastest easiest way for him. And if that way conflicts with a silly local code then so be it. Regards, Tom

davidgelb · May 4, 2009, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by speedball1

Ya just don't go drilling into a $400 ceramic sink. You install the air gap on the countertop.(see image).

Hey Speedball - I am new to this forum, and my Wife and I are purchasing our first home in Los Angeles. The house is old (1950) and the dishwasher was installed without an air gap or high loop. We plan to remodel the kitchen in the next several years, and since the sink is a porcelain sink, I think I will go with the high loop for now and will have an air gap installed when we remodel the kitchen.

Anyway, I read your instructions and will go with that, but your images are no longer in this thread. Do you still have them? Can you re-post them or email them to me?

Thank you for your assistance!

Sincerely,
David

Milo Dolezal · May 5, 2009, 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by davidgelb

Hey Speedball - I am new to this forum, and my Wife and I are purchasing our first home in Los Angeles. The house is old (1950) and the dishwasher was installed without an air gap or high loop. We plan to remodel the kitchen in the next several years, and since the sink is a porcelain sink, I think I will go with the high loop for now and will have an air gap installed when we remodel the kitchen.

Anyway, I read your instructions and will go with that, but your images are no longer in this thread. Do you still have them? Can you re-post them or email them to me?

Thank you for your assistance!

Sincerely,
David

David, I hate to give you bad news, but: it is against the Code in Los Angeles to install Dishwasher w/o Air Gap. In fact, if your DW doesn't have one than it should be pointed out during pre-closing inspection by your Inspector and corrected before escrow papers were signed.

davidgelb · May 5, 2009, 06:43 AM

Hi Milo,
Yes, I know that it is against CA code. The inspector did make note of that in the report, and we will be completely re-doing the kitchen in the near future. When we do, we will be putting in a new sink and dishwasher and will have an air gap installed. Due to the way that this dishwasher was installed by the previous owner, there is no place for me to install an air gap. So, to make due in the mean time, I will need to install a high loop so that I minimize the risk of contamination for the time being.

Thank you for your advice.

If anyone has any photos of a high loop for my reference, I would greatly appreciate it.

-David

speedball1 · May 5, 2009, 06:54 AM

If anyone has any photos of a high loop for my reference, I would greatly appreciate it.

Sorry my images didn't stay up. I've lost a lot of them. This is a site problem the super mods must work on. Here's a high loop instalation. I've also put up a branch tailpiece in case you don't have a disposal. And if the disposal's new don't forget to remove the "knock out plug" before connecting the DW hose. Good luck, Tom

iamgrowler · May 5, 2009, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by davidgelb

Hi Milo,
Yes, I know that it is against CA code. The inspector did make note of that in the report, and we will be completely re-doing the kitchen in the near future. When we do, we will be putting in a new sink and dishwasher and will have an air gap installed.

When you do the remodel, you should consider using a Johnson Tee instead of a counter mounted airgap.

speedball1 · May 5, 2009, 07:38 AM

I still say a "johnson Tee" looks like a copper high loop dumped into a washer stand pipe with a external vent. Cheers, Tom

davidgelb · May 5, 2009, 07:58 AM

Thank you, Speedball and Iamgrowler...

Is the common consensus still to do a counter mounted air gap, or is the Johnson tee a better option? Does the Johnson tee satisfy California code, or would it still not be adequate?

-David

johnny_english · Jul 2, 2009, 05:44 PM

I might be a bit late on this one but I just bought a domsjo sink and it has 2 knock outs either side of the faucet hole which can be opened up for soap dispensers, air gaps etc. don't know if this is just a recent addition to the model though.

Milo Dolezal · Jul 2, 2009, 06:52 PM

Lots of sinks have that option. If they don't have knock-outs than we have to drill them with Starrett bits.

speedball1 · Jul 3, 2009, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by davidgelb

Thank you, Speedball and Iamgrowler....

Is the common consensus still to do a counter mounted air gap, or is the Johnson tee a better option? Does the Johnson tee satisfy California code, or would it still not be adequate?

-David

I still say a "johnson Tee" looks like a copper high loop dumped into a washer stand pipe with a external vent.

awb · Jul 11, 2009, 01:43 PM

The Johnson Tee is similar to the high loop but the difference I see is that the high loop doesn't prevent a plugged sink trap or disposal from backing up waste into the dishwasher, while the Johnson tee gives the dishwasher an independent trap. Seems like a deck mounted air gap is effective because it spits the backed up waste in you face! Just as a point of reference here's a line from the Bellevue Washington building permit: "Dishwashers require an air gap. An air gap can be a deck mount or a Johnson tee type with required trim vent. (UPC 807.4 & 314.0 with exceptions per manufacturer)".