[flickka]

um....maybe HE'S having the affair?? you mentioned not being intimate with him for 4 years, yet you've been married 9? If he didnt have an issue being intimate the 5 years you've been married, why cold feet all of a sudden? you need to find out if the reason he's not sexually available is because he's had a mistress for the 4 years. After all, you claim to love him and can't imagine leaving him, and yet YOU almost cheated on him (not all the way, but you allowed another man to kiss you although you didnt kiss back), so...let's not be naive enough to think he wouldnt do the same, or hasn't been doing the same....

[ordinaryguy]

@ ordinaryguy: I didn't think guys like you existed... :smile:... other than in books and movies (mostly written by women~!). I totally agree with ChihuahauMomma with the *Wow*! :)

Most guys I know are wary of facing depth of any sort in a relationship. My husband would rather that I understand him and just... not talk about it. He would never want anything even remotely close to self-revelation (forget willing!), and in his case it would have to be extracted through careful manipulation, and of course without letting him know that I'm doing it!! ::laughing::

While it may be true that more men than women are reluctant to reveal their inner selves, there are plenty of both sexes who either can't or won't do it without a lot of coaching and encouragement. Also, for many it seems like there's no particular correlation between that deeper level of mutual recognition and a satisfying emotional and sexual relationship. Some people don't seem to need or want it with their sexual partners, or even with anyone at all. I don't really know if that's true, it may just seem that way to me as an observer of other people's relationships.

I'm not complaining. I love him for what he is. We've settled into a comfortable and functional marriage that works for us really well in many ways. I don't expect an intense love from him... BUT... I would like to be candid and open about everything, including our intimacy issues. Even if we never have sex, I want us to be able to explore other options that we could enjoy instead. I want all the fun and frolic and uninhibited passion that is part of loving someone...

What was his childhood like? In my wife's case, she had a hard one, with a lot of conflict and negativity in a large family. I sometimes wonder if it damaged something in her heart that has never recovered.

Unbridled is a great word... I love all the images that brings up. In fact, I can sit and think - for an hour ot two -- of several things that I would love to do that are unbridled. ::laughing again here::

Yeah, and so is "unabashed". Embarrassment, ambivalence, half-heartedness, hesitation, doubt, and uncertainty are all mortal enemies of emotional intimacy and great sex, in my experience.

Sigh.

Anyway...

I was curious, when you said that you've "known briefly - in other relationships..." - did you mean in other relationships you've had or other relationships you've observed?

Other relationships I've had. After two failed marriages in my twenties, I spent a decade living alone and being a bachelor. During that time, I imposed only two conditions on my relationships with women: "I will not share a living space with you", and "I will not promise to be monogamous with you". A select few, maybe three or four, of the relationships that flowered under those conditions still stand out as the most honest and deeply satisfying ones of my life so far.

[shykitte]

um....maybe HE'S having the affair?? you mentioned not being intimate with him for 4 years, yet you've been married 9? If he didnt have an issue being intimate the 5 years you've been married, why cold feet all of a sudden? you need to find out if the reason he's not sexually available is because he's had a mistress for the 4 years. After all, you claim to love him and can't imagine leaving him, and yet YOU almost cheated on him (not all the way, but you allowed another man to kiss you although you didnt kiss back), so...let's not be naive enough to think he wouldnt do the same, or hasn't been doing the same....

Hi flickka, we've been married 8 years. I've mentioned before that sex was never a priority for my husband. It was sporadic during the first four years - like maybe 4 or 5 times a year. But for the past 4 years, its deteriorated into nothing - absolutely no intimacy at all. So its not "cold feet all of a sudden". He has diabetes and takes meds which cause ED (erectile dysfunction)... which is the basic cause, not a mistress or other women. In fact, I wouldn't mind if he had interest in other women, I would rather that he showed SOME interest than nothing. At least I could be certain then that he was still a normal full-blooded guy... but nope, nothing there. I've asked him several times to get porn magazines or movies if those could get him turned on but he's just not interested.

As for me allowing another man to come close to kissing me, I'm only human, and have my moments of temptation... (For the record - though it doesn't matter - he did Not kiss me... ; he tried to but I turned my face and it was just a very awkward "contact" of cheeks... nothing more. :) ) I was not in love with him, just attracted a little bit... but I guess I need to be in love, or be very very impressed by someone to go to that level of being physical with them. The "lust" by itself was not enough.

[shykitte]

While it may be true that more men than women are reluctant to reveal their inner selves, there are plenty of both sexes who either can't or won't do it without a lot of coaching and encouragement. Also, for many it seems like there's no particular correlation between that deeper level of mutual recognition and a satisfying emotional and sexual relationship. Some people don't seem to need or want it with their sexual partners, or even with anyone at all. I don't really know if that's true, it may just seem that way to me as an observer of other people's relationships.

I agree with you. A lot of people seem content with the mundane way things are and don't bother making any effort at making their relationships better.

What was his childhood like? In my wife's case, she had a hard one, with a lot of conflict and negativity in a large family. I sometimes wonder if it damaged something in her heart that has never recovered.

That is probably very true. I don't know how you could help her. How does one deal with childhood-embedded trauma? Do you think some form of therapy could help?

My husband's family is very loving and supportive but he was a Catholic boarding school product, sent away to school when he was 10. I think boarding school strengthened him as a person and made him very independent; but in a way too independent. Sometimes I feel that he doesn't need me as much as I need him.

Yeah, and so is "unabashed". Embarrassment, ambivalence, half-heartedness, hesitation, doubt, and uncertainty are all mortal enemies of emotional intimacy and great sex, in my experience.

I have to confess, there is quite a bit of doubt and uncertainty in my psyche now...
This is NOT self-pity but I do feel at times that I'm not very desirable anymore. ::*embarassed smile*:: Can't seem to get that feeling out even though I tell myself that it's not true.
And I also wonder if I really know how to enjoy good sex anymore; (besides wondering IF I'll ever enjoy sex ~ !) and if its just all in my mind now.

Other relationships I've had. After two failed marriages in my twenties, I spent a decade living alone and being a bachelor. During that time, I imposed only two conditions on my relationships with women: "I will not share a living space with you", and "I will not promise to be monogamous with you". A select few, maybe three or four, of the relationships that flowered under those conditions still stand out as the most honest and deeply satisfying ones of my life so far.

In some relationships, I see one person being the nurturer and therefore the relationship "doctor" - being patient with his/her partner, fixing problems, and compensating for so much... Know what I mean? Is either person happy in such a relationship?

And then in some relationships I see people on the same wavelength, both being able to understand AND give what the other person needs... and being equally committed to making the other person happy. I LOVE those type of relationships. :)

I'm happy for you that you had the relationships you mentioned. If you could turn the clock back, would you pursue a long term relationship with any of those women?

[ordinaryguy]

I agree with you. A lot of people seem content with the mundane way things are and don't bother making any effort at making their relationships better.

Long-term couples who live together seem to "negotiate to a point of stability" (or is it stalemate?). After the sometimes-frenetic search for identity and love in our twenties and thirties, there is something attractive about not having to be growing and changing and becoming somebody new all the time. But all stability is temporary, and even then, it comes at a price.

That is probably very true. I don't know how you could help her. How does one deal with childhood-embedded trauma? Do you think some form of therapy could help?

These are some very deep and difficult questions, and in spite of all the blood, sweat and tears I've devoted to them, I still don't know the answers. I have encouraged, urged, even begged her to get counseling, either solo or together, but she has always remained steadfast in her insistence that she doesn't want to do it, so I've quit bringing it up.

My husband's family is very loving and supportive but he was a Catholic boarding school product, sent away to school when he was 10. I think boarding school strengthened him as a person and made him very independent; but in a way too independent. Sometimes I feel that he doesn't need me as much as I need him.

My guess is that he needs you more, and you need him less, than either of you think right now.

I have to confess, there is quite a bit of doubt and uncertainty in my psyche now...
This is NOT self-pity but I do feel at times that I'm not very desirable anymore. :*embarassed smile*:: Can't seem to get that feeling out even though I tell myself that it's not true.

Well, the bare-naked truth is that you're NOT very desirable TO HIM. But since he seems to have no desire AT ALL, FOR ANYONE, you need not take it personally. Yeah, like that's easy, right?

And I also wonder if I really know how to enjoy good sex anymore; (besides wondering IF I'll ever enjoy sex ~ !) and if its just all in my mind now.

How good was it at its best? Based on this:

sex was never a priority for my husband. It was sporadic during the first four years - like maybe 4 or 5 times a year.

I have to wonder.

What was your emotional/sexual relationship history before you married your husband?

In some relationships, I see one person being the nurturer and therefore the relationship "doctor" - being patient with his/her partner, fixing problems, and compensating for so much... Know what I mean? Is either person happy in such a relationship?

Let's just say they both derive something useful from it. At least for a while.

And then in some relationships I see people on the same wavelength, both being able to understand AND give what the other person needs... and being equally committed to making the other person happy. I LOVE those type of relationships. :)

Was your relationship to your husband ever like this? Have you ever been a party to such a relationship with someone else?

If you could turn the clock back, would you pursue a long term relationship with any of those women?

I had to think about this for awhile.

In one sense, I DO have a long-term relationship with them. A couple of them I keep in touch with, happen to run into them maybe once or twice a year and have a little catch-up conversation about their kids and their parents and their Significant Other, if they happen to have one at the time. I always come away from those encounters with a warm and pleasant afterglow.

On the other hand, I don't wish that I had married them and raised kids with them instead of my wife. I don't imagine that it would have been any easier or more satisfying with them. Part of what I like about them is that they're "difficult women"--intoxicating in small doses, but a steady diet would be likely to produce a hangover.

[shykitte]

My guess is that he needs you more, and you need him less, than either of you think right now.

That really threw me; I never thought of our situation quite like that.

Well, the bare-naked truth is that you're NOT very desirable TO HIM. But since he seems to have no desire AT ALL, FOR ANYONE, you need not take it personally. Yeah, like that's easy, right?

No, not easy at all -- and not easy to accept. So what now? I resign myself to... stalemate??
("Stale"-"mate"?? Whoever invented that word probably had problems with their significant other, I bet... l:)l!)

How good was it at its best? Based on this:
I have to wonder.

It was very good. I loved it, loved everything we did together. He knew what excited me and I loved doing what excited him back. The only problem was that once in a while, the ED interfered and he would not be able to finish. It was a big process for him... something he had to put a lot of effort into, as well as being very tired afterward (more than is usual with regular guys), I also think he felt bad or maybe emasculated about the ED; so with all that, he avoided the whole "process" as much as possible.

What was your emotional/sexual relationship history before you married your husband?

I had a few boyfriends in high school, college; then was married to somebody who was totally wrong for me and I for him... and the marriage was over even before it had begun. I had a few casual relationships after my divorce, but no one that I really wanted to be with long term until I met my husband. There was a much older man for a year or so before I met my husband - he made me feel really secure and special and the sex was incredible; very spontaneous, he wasn't a prude at all and loved trying new things. However, we weren't in love.. so that was that, but it was a memorable experience.

Was your relationship to your husband ever like this? Have you ever been a party to such a relationship with someone else?

There was a glimmer of something like this with my husband in the beginning. I think we have the potential to have a relationship like that, but we don't, for whatever reasons. I did share a relationship like this with someone I was involved with in college, but since then have only seen it in a few other couples, mostly much older.

[flickka]

Hi flickka, we've been married 8 years. I've mentioned before that sex was never a priority for my husband. It was sporadic during the first four years - like maybe 4 or 5 times a year. But for the past 4 years, its deteriorated into nothing - absolutely no intimacy at all. So its not "cold feet all of a sudden". He has diabetes and takes meds which cause ED (erectile dysfunction).... which is the basic cause, not a mistress or other women. In fact, I wouldn't mind if he had interest in other women, I would rather that he showed SOME interest than nothing. At least I could be certain then that he was still a normal full-blooded guy....but nope, nothing there. I've asked him several times to get porn magazines or movies if those could get him turned on but he's just not interested.

As for me allowing another man to come close to kissing me, I'm only human, and have my moments of temptation... (For the record - though it doesn't matter - he did Not kiss me...; he tried to but I turned my face and it was just a very awkward "contact" of cheeks...nothing more. :) ) I was not in love with him, just attracted a little bit......but I guess I need to be in love, or be very very impressed by someone to go to that level of being physical with them. The "lust" by itself was not enough.

I understand... I really don't know what else to tell you. I hope someone here will be able to address your dilema and be of some help. Good luck!

[ordinaryguy]

That really threw me; I never thought of our situation quite like that.

It was just a guess. Is there any truth to it, do you think?

No, not easy at all -- and not easy to accept. So what now? I resign myself to... stalemate??

If you stay with him, you may have to learn to do without sex-as-intimacy. That doesn't mean that you have to be resigned to no sex at all. You may have seen my comment to batybird about this:

My advice is to masturbate regularly. There is an element of use-it-or-lose-it to sexual function. You don't have to feel guilty or self-conscious or apologetic to either your husband or yourself for keeping your sexual machinery (both mental and physical) lubricated and maintained. Does it seem wrong to think of it as "machinery"? Not to me.

Sure, the interpersonal aspects of sexual relations add a whole wonderful dimension to it, when such a relationship is functional. But just because we don't have a functioning sexual relationship with another person is no excuse to let our sexual organs and systems atrophy from disuse. There's a lot of interrelated biochemistry involved, and it's no more healthy to never become sexually aroused than it is to never exert your body enough to preserve muscle tone and cardiovascular function.

It was very good. I loved it, loved everything we did together. He knew what excited me and I loved doing what excited him back. The only problem was that once in a while, the ED interfered and he would not be able to finish. It was a big process for him... something he had to put a lot of effort into, as well as being very tired afterward (more than is usual with regular guys), I also think he felt bad or maybe emasculated about the ED; so with all that, he avoided the whole "process" as much as possible.

I'm sure this must have been quite devastating for him, and understandably so. He has a physical disability that makes it difficult or impossible to have the kind of sex most of us think of as "normal". But it sounds like you would be quite willing to adapt, innovate, and be creative in coming up with other ways to show affection and be intimate, but he isn't willing to go that route and seems to have given up on all forms of intimacy whatsoever.

I guess you really need to decide whether this is a state you're willing to live in for the foreseeable future. Have you considered putting your feelings in writing for him? It would allow you to be careful and precise in saying what really matters to you, and to tell him just how important it is to you to have some form of physical and emotional intimacy, even if it isn't conventional intercourse. If you aren't willing to completely give up on intimacy and settle for a "buddy/roommate" kind of marriage, you can lay that out in clear terms, so that he can decide how to respond.

Of course, you can't be sure that if you leave him you will find a fulfilling relationship with somebody else. It could happen, but it might not, so if you'd rather have the kind of marriage you have now than to be alone, don't bluff about leaving. Personally, I would rather be lonely by myself than with somebody else around, but that's for you to decide. All I'm saying is be sure you're ready to follow through before you issue any ultimatums.

There was a much older man for a year or so before I met my husband - he made me feel really secure and special and the sex was incredible; very spontaneous, he wasn't a prude at all and loved trying new things. However, we weren't in love.. so that was that, but it was a memorable experience.

So from him you learned that good sex without love wasn't enough, and from your husband you're learning that platonic love without sex isn't satisfying either. What's next, do you suppose?

There was a glimmer of something like this with my husband in the beginning. I think we have the potential to have a relationship like that, but we don't, for whatever reasons. I did share a relationship like this with someone I was involved with in college, but since then have only seen it in a few other couples, mostly much older.

So you know that it's not a hopelessly unrealistic fantasy to have such a relationship, but you also know that it not only isn't guaranteed, it isn't even very likely in a statistical sense. Still, unlikely things happen every day, so you might get lucky, either with your current husband, or in your next relationship... or the one after that... or...

I sincerely wish you well. These are not easy choices, I know.

[shykitte]

It was just a guess. Is there any truth to it, do you think?

I don't know, honestly. I saw your post yesterday and didn't want to reply till I sorted it out a bit. :o I always thought that he would not care as much as I would if anything happened to us. I guess its not that simple. But one thing I know for sure is that I could not hurt him,. and cannot bear to see him hurt. (I know that sounds maudlin but I mean it.) Maybe that answers some of the questions you asked me in this post. And maybe you'll ask me something else now that I may find difficult to answer... :)

If you stay with him, you may have to learn to do without sex-as-intimacy. That doesn't mean that you have to be resigned to no sex at all. You may have seen my comment to batybird about this:
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
My advice is to masturbate regularly. There is an element of use-it-or-lose-it to sexual function. You don't have to feel guilty or self-conscious or apologetic to either your husband or yourself for keeping your sexual machinery (both mental and physical) lubricated and maintained. Does it seem wrong to think of it as "machinery"? Not to me.

I've been doing that for a long time now ~ I'd have gone nuts if I hadn't. :) It does not exactly compensate so its been somewhat unsatisfying. Mostly I don't go to sleep till very late -- I stay up all night - sometimes reading, watching TV,. or surfing porn sites. A few months back, I started chatting online. I know that it would be so easy to get together with someone just for sex. I would often get really tempted but then think of my husband and start crying... and the whole thing made me feel disgusted with myself. So... back to trying to figure out how to work my husband..

I'm sure this must have been quite devastating for him, and understandably so. He has a physical disability that makes it difficult or impossible to have the kind of sex most of us think of as "normal". But it sounds like you would be quite willing to adapt, innovate, and be creative in coming up with other ways to show affection and be intimate, but he isn't willing to go that route and seems to have given up on all forms of intimacy whatsoever.

That's very true.

I guess you really need to decide whether this is a state you're willing to live in for the foreseeable future. Have you considered putting your feelings in writing for him? It would allow you to be careful and precise in saying what really matters to you, and to tell him just how important it is to you to have some form of physical and emotional intimacy, even if it isn't conventional intercourse. If you aren't willing to completely give up on intimacy and settle for a "buddy/roommate" kind of marriage, you can lay that out in clear terms, so that he can decide how to respond.

Of course, you can't be sure that if you leave him you will find a fulfilling relationship with somebody else. It could happen, but it might not, so if you'd rather have the kind of marriage you have now than to be alone, don't bluff about leaving. Personally, I would rather be lonely by myself than with somebody else around, but that's for you to decide. All I'm saying is be sure you're ready to follow through before you issue any ultimatums.

I've actually tried to talk to him a few times over the years. At those times, I'm the one who talks, and he keeps quiet. If I ask him what he thinks, he usually responds that he doesn't know what to say. My tone ranges from gentle to cautious to reasonable to sometimes slightly upset. It's hard to remind him about this and make him feel bad; but the worst is that he doesn't respond, and doesn't want to respond. I get the feeling that he feels that if he ignores it, it'll just go away. Maybe I'm wrong - maybe he's just feeling helpless about the whole thing; in which case, I don't want to be mean to him either.

About continuing like this - I don't want to, but I can't even think of leaving or breaking up at this time. I realize that I have this problem that cannot be resolved easily, or resolved at all. You're so right about my options. I don't want to be by myself unless I had no other choice.

So from him you learned that good sex without love wasn't enough, and from your husband you're learning that platonic love without sex isn't satisfying either. What's next, do you suppose?

You ask some hard questions. :) I don't have an answer to that yet; what about you?

So you know that it's not a hopelessly unrealistic fantasy to have such a relationship, but you also know that it not only isn't guaranteed, it isn't even very likely in a statistical sense. Still, unlikely things happen every day, so you might get lucky, either with your current husband, or in your next relationship... or the one after that... or...

How many people are you expecting me to have relationships with? :p

I sincerely wish you well. These are not easy choices, I know.

Thank you. I wish you well back also! Hope you know that it means a lot to me to be able to talk to someone about this. You and everyone here have given me a lot of insightful posts and helped me to understand myself and my relationship with my husband better. Please keep posting whenever you can.

@ flicka: Thanks, I appreciate your saying that. :)

[talaniman]

I don't know the whole circumstance, but do feel that channeling your frustrations into positive productive, things will help as, you seek a solution that works for you.

There is no reason not to spend your time enjoying the things that make you happy, then you won't be as tempted by the urge to find someone to scratch that itch, and deal with guilt on top of frustration.

[ordinaryguy]

Hi Shy--
Well, you certainly have provided a lot of material to work with here. I like that. I'll take it a bite at a time, as time allows.

I don't know, honestly. I saw your post yesterday and didn't want to reply till I sorted it out a bit. :o I always thought that he would not care as much as I would if anything happened to us. I guess its not that simple.

Nope, nothing simple about it. Are you saying that you feel more emotionally dependent on him than you think he is on you? I guess I see you as less dependent on him than you suppose. If you were really dependent on him for emotional sustenance, you would have starved to death by now, because he's given you NOTHING for quite awhile, by the sound of it. He, on the other hand is like an emotional black hole that sucks in everything you can give, and it seems to disappear without a trace or observable effect. In that sense, he's utterly dependent on you, because I'll bet nobody else is pouring much energy into his reservoir.

But one thing I know for sure is that I could not hurt him,. and cannot bear to see him hurt. (I know that sounds maudlin but I mean it.)

Yes, I'm sure you do mean it, and I'm sure he knows that, and uses it, consciously or not, to manipulate you. He knows that all he has to do is assume the pained and distant air of a true sufferer, and you'll quit insisting that he engage emotionally and will leave him alone with his pain. I don't doubt that he is in genuine pain, just as you are, but his unwillingness to engage and work through it to some kind of resolution, or even one small step in the direction of healing, is a cop-out that keeps both of you stuck in the emotional desert.

The truth is that being hurt is a chosen response, and therefore no one can hurt another, at least not repeatedly, without their consent. I'm not denying that some people act with cruel intent, or that the objects of that cruelty are wrong to be hurt by it. But I am saying that being "hurt" by another person's words or actions is often a defensive maneuver to avoid having to confront the truth of what they're telling us. Sometimes, the truth hurts, but that doesn't mean we're doing people a favor to let them continually ignore and avoid it.

Maybe that answers some of the questions you asked me in this post. And maybe you'll ask me something else now that I may find difficult to answer... :)

Is any of this even close?

[ordinaryguy]

Continuing on...

I've been doing that for a long time now ~ I'd have gone nuts if I hadn't. :) It does not exactly compensate so its been somewhat unsatisfying.

I guess it depends on what you expect it to be. Of course, it doesn't compensate for an emotional relationship. But as a gift to yourself, and as a physical and biochemical balancing act, it's better than atrophy and sclerosis.

Mostly I don't go to sleep till very late -- I stay up all night - sometimes reading, watching TV,. or surfing porn sites. A few months back, I started chatting online. I know that it would be so easy to get together with someone just for sex. I would often get really tempted but then think of my husband and start crying... and the whole thing made me feel disgusted with myself. So... back to trying to figure out how to work my husband..

I had noticed that most of your posts were made in the wee hours. How do you manage this? Do you work?
Does your husband know that this is how you spend your nights? Would he be hurt if he did?

I've actually tried to talk to him a few times over the years.

I know that talking hasn't worked, that's why I asked about writing. You write very well, and are obviously quite capable of expressing yourself clearly in that way. Have you tried it? The process of putting it into written form could be helpful for you whether he ever reads it or not.

At those times, I'm the one who talks, and he keeps quiet. If I ask him what he thinks, he usually responds that he doesn't know what to say. My tone ranges from gentle to cautious to reasonable to sometimes slightly upset. It's hard to remind him about this and make him feel bad; but the worst is that he doesn't respond, and doesn't want to respond. I get the feeling that he feels that if he ignores it, it'll just go away.

Ohhh, this sounds so familiar. I've always been a talker, with great faith in the efficacy of "talking things out". But my wife has taught me that talking doesn't necessarily produce a solution for every problem, or a resolution of every conflict. If I had a dollar for every time I've heard, "I don't want to talk about it", or "I don't know what to say", I'd be a rich man. A person who doesn't want to communicate can't be forced into it.

Maybe I'm wrong - maybe he's just feeling helpless about the whole thing; in which case, I don't want to be mean to him either.

He probably is feeling hopeless, but insisting that he engage emotionally with you is not "being mean to him". The sexual dysfunction is a (mostly) physical problem, but using that as an excuse to shut you out emotionally and to refuse all forms of intimacy and affection is just wrong.

About continuing like this - I don't want to, but I can't even think of leaving or breaking up at this time.

Of course you can think of it, and you already have, lots of times. I accept that you aren't ready to take action "at this time", but you certainly have thought about it, and you know that it could eventually come to that.

I realize that I have this problem that cannot be resolved easily, or resolved at all.

I think it's fair to say that it can't be resolved within the limits of the options you're willing to consider "at this time". That doesn't mean that it can't ever be resolved, it just means that the time is not yet ripe.

You're so right about my options. I don't want to be by myself unless I had no other choice.

You will always have another choice, but not necessarily one that's healthier than being alone. The fear of being alone keeps a lot of people locked in unhealthy relationships. When you no longer fear solitude and loneliness, you will be ready for a truly equal relationship, but not before. What is the longest you have ever gone without being involved in a relationship? Have you ever lived alone? For how long?

You ask some hard questions. :)

I do my best.

I don't have an answer to that yet; what about you?

I'll PM you about this...

How many people are you expecting me to have relationships with? :p

As many as it takes.

Thank you. I wish you well back also! Hope you know that it means a lot to me to be able to talk to someone about this. You and everyone here have given me a lot of insightful posts and helped me to understand myself and my relationship with my husband better. Please keep posting whenever you can.

I will. It's kind of a mystery to me why discussing these most intimate matters with complete strangers helps, but sometimes it does.

[Wondergirl]

Has he always been sort of reluctant to get physical? If so, is it possible he has ADD? I ask because people with ADD or a form of high-functioning autism, for instance, do not like to touch or be touched. The ED could be exacerbating that situation.

Did he have trouble focusing in school and sticking to business? Does he start projects, but never finishes them because he's lost interest? Does he have a strong startle reflex? Is he a creature of habit--likes to reread the same books, eat the same kinds of food, go to the same restaurants? Does he get upset with changes, even something like if you rearranged the furniture in a room (especially without telling him beforehand) or repainted the kitchen without his input? Does he keep lots of lists tucked into a pocket?

[shykitte]

@ talaniman:

I don't know the whole circumstance, but do feel that channeling your frustrations into positive productive, things will help as, you seek a solution that works for you.

There is no reason not to spend your time enjoying the things that make you happy, then you wont be as tempted by the urge to find someone to scratch that itch, and deal with guilt on top of frustration.

Thanks, talaniman, I've been aware of your advice from earlier in this thread and also on baty's forum. I am trying to get involved in productive and good things that I enjoy doing to keep myself occupied. Is that a way to distract myself? :) Does it work?

[shykitte]

@ ordinaryguy: I'll try to respond to some of your comments here and the rest in a separate post.


@ Wondergirl:

Has he always been sort of reluctant to get physical? If so, is it possible he has ADD? I ask because people with ADD or a form of high-functioning autism, for instance, do not like to touch or be touched. The ED could be exacerbating that situation.

Did he have trouble focusing in school and sticking to business? Does he start projects, but never finishes them because he's lost interest? Does he have a strong startle reflex? Is he a creature of habit--likes to reread the same books, eat the same kinds of food, go to the same restaurants? Does he get upset with changes, even something like if you rearranged the furniture in a room (especially without telling him beforehand) or repainted the kitchen without his input? Does he keep lots of lists tucked into a pocket?

Thanks for checking. I believe the diabetic meds and his high sugar levels are the primary cause of the ED. I don't think he was reluctant to get physical before the diabetes. Unfortunately, I didn't know him then, but my impression from what I've heard about him is that he was like any normal guy. And no, he does not have ADD or any form of autism. He is an intelligent, reasonable, well-informed, mature and good-hearted guy. As far as I know, he was above average in school; and he's organized and proactive in his work and in any business he attempts. He has never started any project that he has not finished, and finished well; and he doesn't read a book more than once. I haven't painted a kitchen or room by myself (:p ) or without telling him, but if I did, he would not get upset unless it was an incredibly freaky horrible color or something like that. If he's not provoked - which is rare, he is calm and laid back. And lastly, no, he does not keep lists in his pocket. :)

In general, he is interested in many things: sports, current affairs, financial investments, gardening, cooking, woodworking... and travel. He loves to travel (as do I~) and to explore new places, meet new people, try new foods, etc. and is avidly interested in history and culture. Together, we have travelled all over the US and also to Canada, Europe, Africa and Asia in the past 8 years. Life has been an adventure in many ways.

As a rule, he's a thoughtful and considerate husband. I have no complaints about him except for the total lack of sex and romance of any sort in our relationship.

[shykitte]

@ ordinaryguy: yes, I work. :) I'm a Realtor, so I have some flexibilty. Some days I have clients, like yesterday - then I go to bed early. Other days I'm usually up all night. I'm very sleepy tonight so I'll answer all your comments in detail tomorrow.

[talaniman]

Is that a way to distract myself? :) Does it work?

Not distract, refocusing. Do things that make you happy, and keep you balanced, and share that happiness with your husband. Yes it does work, just be patient with the process, as it will help you build the bonds of communications, so you can work together better.

I'm not saying it will cure your sex life, merely give you a positive perspective.

It will help build on what you obviously have already, a deep love and respect.

[shykitte]

Nope, nothing simple about it. Are you saying that you feel more emotionally dependent on him than you think he is on you? I guess I see you as less dependent on him than you suppose. If you were really dependent on him for emotional sustenance, you would have starved to death by now, because he's given you NOTHING for quite awhile, by the sound of it. He, on the other hand is like an emotional black hole that sucks in everything you can give, and it seems to disappear without a trace or observable effect. In that sense, he's utterly dependent on you, because I'll bet nobody else is pouring much energy into his reservoir.

In some ways I’m more emotionally dependent on this relationship as a whole - than on just him. What I mean by that is that there are many aspects of our relationship that I do not want to give up because/in spite of the issues we have. But after saying that, I asked myself if I was emotionally dependent on him; and WHY…, if I was. (You started this… )

To a certain degree, yes I am. I may be more dependent on an Idea of what he could be like than what he actually is like. I think there are a lot of us in similar relationships who do the same thing. But I am also emotionally dependent on him because of my love and liking for him, which I do not want to give up. When I read what you said about him being like a black hole -- my first instinct was to defend him outright, but then I reluctantly had to agree that there is some truth to it. Not entirely, but some.

It’s true that he does not express affection or passion; and he avoids any form of intimacy. That is a huge part of a relationship. But he is incredibly considerate and caring in almost every other way. There are things he does for me and for us that leaves me in no doubt that he loves me. That does not excuse the fact that he is depriving me and us of one of the most basic reasons for a relationship.

Is that enough to let go of the relationship though?

“About continuing like this - I don't want to, but I can't even think of leaving or breaking up at this time.”
Of course you can think of it, and you already have, lots of times. I accept that you aren't ready to take action "at this time", but you certainly have thought about it, and you know that it could eventually come to that.

It’s funny because when I replied to you about this, at first I wrote: “I’ve thought about leaving many times…” and then took it out.

Can I live without him? I guess I could but it would be VERY difficult to give him up. I try to imagine what it would be like for me to be without him, and ….you’re right, I’m not ready to give him up or give up on us at this time.

Yes, I'm sure you do mean it, and I'm sure he knows that, and uses it, consciously or not, to manipulate you. He knows that all he has to do is assume the pained and distant air of a true sufferer, and you'll quit insisting that he engage emotionally and will leave him alone with his pain. I don't doubt that he is in genuine pain, just as you are, but his unwillingness to engage and work through it to some kind of resolution, or even one small step in the direction of healing, is a cop-out that keeps both of you stuck in the emotional desert.

I agree.

The truth is that being hurt is a chosen response, and therefore no one can hurt another, at least not repeatedly, without their consent. I'm not denying that some people act with cruel intent, or that the objects of that cruelty are wrong to be hurt by it. But I am saying that being "hurt" by another person's words or actions is often a defensive maneuver to avoid having to confront the truth of what they're telling us. Sometimes, the truth hurts, but that doesn't mean we're doing people a favor to let them continually ignore and avoid it.

That is a very interesting perspective, - to choose whether you let someone continually hurt you or not. It seems so simple and so logical. If only more people realized that, I believe that would make for a lot more happier relationships.

Is any of this even close?

What do you think ? :)

[shykitte]

Does your husband know that this is how you spend your nights? Would he be hurt if he did?

Yes, he knows. When I mentioned looking at porn sites to him, all he did was acknowledge it. I don’t know exactly how he feels about it, but I’m sure he feels like he should let me do whatever I like since he can’t do anything about it. If he does feel hurt, he might have done something to resolve it... ….

I know that talking hasn't worked, that's why I asked about writing. You write very well, and are obviously quite capable of expressing yourself clearly in that way. Have you tried it? The process of putting it into written form could be helpful for you whether he ever reads it or not.

Thank you for that compliment! I’m flattered that you think so, as you’re an excellent writer yourself.

Yes, I’ve written about how I feel a few times. They were mostly rants of frustration but surprisingly, I was less resentful afterwards.

You will always have another choice, but not necessarily one that's healthier than being alone. The fear of being alone keeps a lot of people locked in unhealthy relationships. When you no longer fear solitude and loneliness, you will be ready for a truly equal relationship, but not before. What is the longest you have ever gone without being involved in a relationship? Have you ever lived alone? For how long?

I’ve never lived alone. There was always family or roommates – not by deliberate choice but just because circumstances happened that way.
The longest I went without being involved with anyone was for 2 years - right after my first marriage ended in divorce.

Since I’ve never been alone, I don’t know what that is like. So I don’t know if I’ll be afraid of it or not. It might be liberating – not having to live with or think about anyone except myself. Or it might be lonelier than I expect – so I don’t know.

It's kind of a mystery to me why discussing these most intimate matters with complete strangers helps, but sometimes it does.

I guess getting a fresh perspective and an unbiased and impartial point of view helps. Besides which, we can secretly ask a stranger to help without admitting to people who know us that we are in need of help… :)

[shykitte]

Not distract, refocusing. Do things that make you happy, and keep you balanced, and share that happiness with your husband. Yes it does work, just be patient with the process, as it will help you build the bonds of communications, so you can work together better.

I'm not saying it will cure your sex life, merely give you a positive perspective.

It will help build on what you obviously have already, a deep love and respect.

I appreciate your advice, talaniman, and will do what I can. If you think of anything else, please keep posting.