[Stubits]

A month or so ago I posted a question on the site regarding waste from my kitchen sink(located on the first floor of the home) backing up into the sink in my basement bathroom. We have found that if we avoid filling our kitchen sink (very deep) full of water, we don't have problems with the basement bathroom.

We are in the process of adding a kitchenette to our basement and are planning to locate a small (13") sink on a wall immediately adjacent to our laundry closet, with the sink draining into the washing machine drain.

For the purposes of the project, I took the drywall down in the laundry closet and am concerned with what I found. The drain for the washing machine is just one piece of PVC that runs down into the concrete slab below. It does not appear to be vented (the PVC pipe doesn't run up the wall at all) and I am not sure there is a trap

Obviously the basement is a concrete slab and the contractor who remodeled the house before we bought it indicated that he had to cut a trench in the concrete to install the laundry room and basement bathroom. We have never had trouble with the washing machine draining and the sink, toilet and shower in the basement bathroom operate just fine. The only plumbing problem we've had is the one I mentioned previously. We also do not have any trouble with odor or anything.

So, I am concerned about the quality of the work that was done prior to our purchasing the home. Any thoughts on the situation would be much appreciated. Particularly, 1) does this sound like a major problem? 2) Is there anyway to tell if the washing machine drain is trapped, perhaps below the concrete slab? 3) Should I plan on adding a studor valve to the washing machine? What about to the kitchenette sink?

I will be having all work done by a plumber, but I wanted to understand the problem first before calling anyone in. Would pictures help at all? Basically it would show a white PVC tube running from about midway up the all, straight into the cement slab, not much else.

Thanks!

[speedball1]

Let's see if your washer's trapped. Take a long rod or stick and let it go down to the bottom of the pipe. If you're trapped you will see a couple of inches of water on the end. That's the trap seal. If there's no water on the stick then you have a direct connection between your home and the city sewer that must be looked after. I would hold off on the addition until I found out exactly how the washer was set up. Regards, Toml

[Stubits]

Tom-

You are really great. Thanks so much!

I will check this out tonight, great idea on the rod/stick. If you don't mind, can I ask a couple of hypothetical questions?

I am attaching a really basic, not to scale drawing of the relevant part of the basement (blue are the vent stacks, red are the drains, also, there is a kitchen above the basement bathroom on the first floor and a full bath on the second floor, above the utility closet), just so you know, the goal is two-fold, 1) to make sure the washer continues to function properly without funky smells and 2) to get a small kitchenette sink installed. I'd appreciate your advice on any/all of this.

Let's assume the washer is not trapped below the cement slab, I imagine a plumber can add a trap in pretty easily, right? In that case, would we simply be able to run the kitchenette sink drain in below the washer trap? Then we'd avoid having a double trap and everything should be protected against sewer gas, right?

If the washer is trapped below the cement slab, what options do we have for the kitchenette sink, because I'd imagine we should avoid a "double trap," right? Can we do the sink without a trap, given that the drain itself is trapped?

So, assuming the washer isn't properly vented, and I seriously doubt that it is, what do we do? I know that studor vents are less than optimal, but it is the only option we have here. We live in a 75 year old attached brick rowhouse, so it isn't easy to make a run from the basement through to the roof. I would be sure to install an access panel by the vent in case we need to replace it in the future. Do studor vents get installed before or after the trap? Would one vent work for both the washer and the kitchenette sink or would I need both? I am just trying to plan this out in my mind.

Have you ever ever worked with "hygienic self sealing waste valves" like this one? http://www.tomraperrvparts.com/parts...productid=5878
Would this be helpful in this situation?

The laundry closet is immediately adjacent to a full basement bathroom (tub/shower, toilet, sink). When the tub drains, I can absolutely hear it in the laundry closet (they sound connected). Is it possible that the washer is on the same drain and or vent as the bathroom and that the whole bathroom is vented together?

Thanks!

[speedball1]

The laundry closet is immediately adjacent to a full basement bathroom (tub/shower, toilet, sink). When the tub drains, I can absolutely hear it in the laundry closet (they sound connected). Is it possible that the washer is on the same drain and or vent as the bath room and that the whole bathroom is vented together?

This really bothers me. What's possible is that the washer isn't trapped and you're hearing the discharge go past the open pipe. And if it isn't trapped chances are that it isn't vented as well. Put everything on hold until you find out. The link you gave me;http://www.tomraperrvparts.com/parts...productid=5878
Wouldn't come up. Want to try again? Tom

[Stubits]

Om-

Thanks for all the advice. I did as you said and the stick cam back bone dry... I guess it is not trapped or vented. Uh oh!

So, what do you recommend now? The end goal, now, is to correct the problems with the washer drain AND tie in a small bar sink to the same drain. Is this possible? If so, what do you suggest? Here is a small graphic of what I am thinking, but not sure if it really makes sense.

I know many people are VERY opposed to Studor Vents, what are your thoughts? If I make it accessible/replaceable via an access panel, is it a that bad of an option here?

Also, the same folks that plumbed the washing machine standpipe did the basement bathroom (all new addition), and I guess I am concerned that they failed to properly trap or vent the tub, sink and toilet in there as well as the kitchen sink above. Is there anyway to figure all this out?

I really appreciate your help and guidance.

Thanks!

[speedball1]

Install the washer trap and stand pipe as close to the floor as you can and the sink trap above it. The AAV should vent both fixtures. You had a dangerous situation in your home. You had sewer gas coming untrapped into your house. You might not have smelled it but every time you drained something the back pressure pushed sewer gas out the open pipe. Good luck, Tom

[Stubits]

Tom-

Thanks a ton. Sounds like I am not in TOO bad of shape on the washer, etc.

I am however worried about the adjacent bathroom... it was installed by the same lousy contractor and I am afraid that if he messed up the washer, he could have done similarly for the bathroom and other work he did. Is there a way, I or a plumber can tell if other fixtures are properly trapped and vented?

Here are some pics, one of the washer standpipe, just for reference, one from under the kitchen sink, you can see it just drains directly down to the basement, and one from an access panel in the basement, the vertical pipe is running down from the kitchen, the horizontal pipe begins at the lavatory drain and the both run towards the right, which is where the vent stack is located. Is it possible this is just poorly vented, if so, how poorly, or is it just totally wrong and not functional?

Thanks!

[speedball1]

one from under the kitchen sink, you can see it just drains directly down to the basement,

This is a illegal "S" trap. This fixture is not vented.
Does the lavatory have the same trap set up? I would get a sharp plumber in to check out your drainage and let you know how to bring it up to code. I'm no lawyer but you just may have a case against the contractor or plumber that put in such a sub standard job. Keep me informed , Tom

[Stubits]

Tom-

Just wanted to say thank you, thank you, thank you. I had a plumber in on Saturday to check out the problems and he agreed with you 100%. Fortunately, the vent stack runs through the basement bathroom, so he didn't think it would be much of a problem to tie into it. He'll be at our house on Monday to start the work.

Not sure how clear it is in the photo of the pipes in the bathroom wall, but the couple that ties the lavatory sink (to the left) with the kitchen sink(above) and with the drain(to the right), actually directs the water from the kitchen sink to the left, towards the lavatory sink, as opposed to sending it towards the right, the drain. It is crazy how bad the work is.

Clearly the work was not done by a plumber, but I have doubts that the work was done by a reasonably intelligent human being. We aren't planning to take legal action because as of right now, the cost isn't too much. The plumber is a good guy, the husband of one of my colleagues, and so is giving us a bit of a break.

Thanks though, for everything!

[speedball1]

Glad you got a plumber in that knew his stuff. Thanks for bringing me up to date. Good luck, Tom

[Stubits]

Tom-

Thanks so much. Our plumber started yesterday and it is a real mess. As he was working on the various problems, PVC just started falling out of the sky... they hadn't bothered to properly glue most of the pieces together. So disgusting!

Anyway, the plumber is on another job today and will be back tomorrow to start fixing the bathroom mess (yesterday he worked on the kitchenette rough in), but I wanted to run something by you. Please see the attached diagram, I just discovered another mess this morning.

Basically, the setup is as follows, there is a piece of 2" PVC running from the lavatory sink towards the drain on the right, it is intercepted by a connector of some sort that ties in the kitchen sink from above into that drain line. The 2" drain continues to the right. In the diagram, there are two "boxes" at the right of the image, the black one is the cast iron vent stack that runs up the whole house and out through the roof. The red one is a cast iron "stub" about 4"-6" high. The bathroom sink/kitchen sink drain ties into this with a 90. There is some wetness at that connection point (where the 90 from the bathroom/kitchen sink drain meets the cast iron stub). None of this is connected to the vent stack.

What's going on here? Any thoughts? What would you do here to make this all right?

Thanks!

[speedball1]

You appear to have a unvented kitchen sink discharging into another unvented drain line. The plumber that did this abortion oughtta be run out of the trade.
The kitchen should be vented, either with a AAV or a vent through the roof and the downstairs lavatory should have a vent installed also. Hopefully the shower's connect to the lavatory drain line whyere it will be wet vented by it.
Let me make some terms clear at this time.
Stack vent = a pipe that has fixtures draining into it before it goes through the roof as a vent.
Vent stack= A stack vent that's dry from the last fixture through the roof.
That cast iron pipe's a stack vent and you may not connect a vent from the downstairs lavatory to it until it's 6" over the floor rim of the highest fixture draining into it. If you connect back to a existing dry vent stack then do so with a inverted sanitary tee. Good luck, Tom

[Stubits]

Tom-

Thanks a ton. I agree the original plumber was horrible, not likely he was a plumber, really.

A couple of things for you to comment on, if you'd be so kind.

1) The vent that runs from the basement bathroom through the roof is a dry vent, there is nothing draining into it above.

2) Can my plumber simply vent the lavatory sink/kitchen sink drain (after the kitchen sink ties in, I mean), to that vent?

3) As for the shower, from what we have been able to discern, there is a 3" PVC that runs from the washing machine drain (now vented with an AAV) ties into the shower drain (currently not trapped, but plumber will be installing a trap tomorrow) and then ties into the main drain under the bathroom floor.

4) I noticed it was somewhat moist at the union between the PVC lavatory/kitchen drain and the

Ugg, I am so very frustrated by all of this. I am glad we found the problems and are rectifying them, but it is really out of control.

*****Please see the diagram I am attaching, does it make sense? Is it sufficient to do just the vent pipe in light blue? Or would we have to do both the light blue and the green?****

Thanks!

[Stubits]

Here are a couple more pics, one of the bathroom as it is currently, the plumber I hired corrected, as best he could, the flow of water from the upstairs kitchen sink. It is a bit of a jigsaw puzzle, but aside from tearing out the entire bathroom and kitchen, it looks like it will work, what do you think? You also see how it connects to the drain, obviously, there is no venting at all, right? What would you suggest, given this setup to vent this mess? You can see the "vent stack" right behind the drain stub. It is dry, straight up to the roof, nothing else drains into it.

The second photo is of the mess that is the tub trap, or supposed tub trap. It actually looks like they melted the pvc in order to bend it a little bit. All they managed to do was twist it all up, constrict flow, and ultimately not trap it!

Thoughts?