[rhadsen]

I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?

Rob

[N0help4u]

I believe that if you need purgatory then you are not relying on Jesus as sufficient to forgive your sins.

Purgatory - Is It Biblical?

I believe what people call purgatory is an instantaneous moment

1 Corinthians 3:15

"If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."

Though Mr. Keating does not point out this verse in this E-Letter, he has often appealed to it when trying to present a Biblical text to serve as proof for Rome's doctrine of "purgatory."

I think Rome's apologists especially like this verse because it contains the words that sound like their doctrine of "purgatory:" "suffer," "loss," "fire," "saved," etc. However, like any Biblical text, it must be examined and understood within its immediate and overall context, for "any text taken out of context is a pretext."

Even a cursory examination of the context discloses that the Apostle Paul is not describing a man imprisoned in a place where his sins are being purged through personal suffering and by cleansing fire. In fact, Paul is not addressing sins in this passage at all, but a Christian workman's labor and subsequent rewards.

Paul metaphorically points out that according to the grace of God given to him, as a wise master builder he laid the foundation of Christ in Corinth, and another subsequently builds upon that foundation with valuable, noncombustible materials such as gold, silver and precious stones, or, worthless combustible materials such as wood, hay or straw (3:8-12). The value of the building materials is analogous to the value of the workman's labor, and it is the value of this "work" that "will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work" (3:13). If the work by which he built upon the foundation remains he receives a reward (vs. 14). If any of the man's work is burned up, he suffers loss (of reward, vs. 15).

When read in context it becomes very clear that Paul is not speaking of a future stint for believers in a place called "purgatory." But a future judgment when a Christian worker's labor will be tested (i.e. appraised), and if found valuable, rewarded. There is absolutely no mention of personal sins in the context of this passage, and the fire here is not a means of purging but revealing (vs. 13).

Rome's doctrine of "purgatory" does not comply at all with the Biblical teachings of God's grace toward us through Christ Jesus. And the amazing irony is that those who teach this valueless, totally non-Biblical doctrine, will at that future judgment themselves, if saved, suffer loss as by "fire."

Purgatory is taken from
"At his death, our Lord "preached to the spirits in prison" (1 Pet. 3:19). Who were these folks, and where were they? They were those who died before the Redemption was effected and who were bound for heaven--but who were not yet there because heaven was not opened to anyone until after the Resurrection. These people were not in the hell of the damned, since we are told that Christ ended up taking them along with him to heaven (Eph. 4:8-10). Those in hell weren't going anywhere. It would have made no sense for him to preach to them."

BUT THAT place was a waiting place for the time when Jesus was crucified and THEN set them free and is no longer needed.

[rhadsen]

Rome's doctrine of "purgatory" does not comply at all with the Biblical teachings of God's grace toward us through Christ Jesus. And the amazing irony is that those who teach this valueless, totally non-Biblical doctrine, will at that future judgment themselves, if saved, suffer loss as by "fire."

Rob

NOhelp4u,

Thanks for the insight. It would seem that you would argue that the RCC shouldn't teach such things as "3 yrs off purgatory for reading your Bible" , etc.

Rob

[sndbay]

I believe that if you need purgatory then you are not relying on Jesus as sufficient to forgive your sins.

BUT THAT place was a waiting place for the time when Jesus was crucified and THEN set them free and is no longer needed.

AGREE with you, NOhelp4u.. Such an important part of not teaching falsely. Keeping Chirst Holy, and Above All Else believing in His worthyness in body and blood.



Isaiah 42:3A A bruised reed shall He not break, and the smoking flax shall He not quench: He shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Matthew 12:20 A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory

To My servant say's God: " I " will trim your wick so that "My" Light of Truth shines bright and "I" have victory.. Amen to that!

[sndbay]

NOhelp4u,

Thanks for the insight. It would seem that you would agree that the RCC shouldn't teach such things as "3 yrs off purgatory for reading your Bible" and etc.

Rob

Let's just say Nohelp4u sows good seed.

Matthew 13:22-23 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

[savedsinner7]

I've seen where it's claimed that this or that good work will get so many years taken off of your stay in purgatory. Just what exactly does the RCC teach regarding the length of one's stay there? Is it a millisecond? A million years? Does anyone know, and if so, can they rightly claim that this or that work takes off "X" amount of purgatorial time?

Rob

I don't know about specific church denomination doctrines, but the Bible says this:

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,


NO mention of purgatory in the Bible. Just death, then judgment.

[Fr_Chuck]

This is a issue of church teachings it is obvoius those that don't believe in it, will not accept its teaching. There is no exact time people, for it. As to the power and authority of the church to do such, it is from the power also to bind or loose sins given to the church though Peter.

[savedsinner7]

This is a issue of church teachings it is obvoius those that don't believe in it, will not accept its teaching. there is no exact time people, for it. As to the power and authority of the church to do such, it is from the power also to bind or loose sins given to the church though Peter.

Where does the Bible say that a church can bind or loose sin?
Jesus said the following referring to spiritual warfare:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 16:18-20 (in Context) Matthew 16 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 18:18
“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 18:17-19 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)

BUT, this does not give us the power to bind or loose sin.
We are born in sin and the only one to forgive our sin and change the iniquity of our heart is the LORD GOD.



EDIT:
I was wrong to assume. Jesus did command us to forgive others sins.
Fr. Chuck: Please forgive me?


John 20:22-24 (English Standard Version)\22And when he had said this, he(A) breathed on them and said to them, (B) "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23(C) If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."

[N0help4u]

Denominations can claim anything they want the thing is studying to figure out what the Bible says and means.

[savedsinner7]

I think that's why I go to a non-denominational church. We just use the Bible for our instruction, not what someone else said we should be or do.

[Tj3]

Denominations can claim anything they want the thing is studying to figure out what the Bible says and means.

This is the problem. Too often the denomination or church leadership is put in place of the true authority - scripture. Once they claim that they are alone are to interpret scripture or that you must follow their interpretation, it is time to leave that church since they have taken on a role which scripture says that they ought not to assume:

2 Peter 1:19-21
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

It is not of private interpretation of man - no man! Scripture interprets scripture.

[savedsinner7]

Fr. Chuck.
Please see my edit on post #8. I was wrong.
Kelly

[sndbay]

This is a issue of church teachings it is obvoius those that don't believe in it, will not accept its teaching. there is no exact time people, for it. As to the power and authority of the church to do such, it is from the power also to bind or loose sins given to the church though Peter.

My opinion is we have freedom of choice. The freedom we arrived to achieve in America years ago. We have freedom to religion. This all accounts for the free will God gaves us. Follow in His Light or follow darkness. Scripture does not say give up your free will to the church authorities or priest. Nor does scripture say God gave your free will to the authorities of the church. Scripture tells us that God has fore told us all things. It does not say the church authority were the only ones fore told all things. All will be accountable to their actions, and Jesus does hold the Book to which your actions are held accountable.

(Revelation 20:12)And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

God told us this was all shown to John and he was told to write it in a (book) that book is call Revelation.
Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

The churches are the people, believers and non believers, the church authority had no power given except to feed the sheep. What should they feed? Truth, The Word of God being Christ. God sent angels (messengers) within the church. These angels / messengers are the priest...

Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

Christ had in His hand seven stars which are angels Revelation 1:20 does explain that fact. And out of Christ mouth was the Word like a 2 edged sword, and Christ's countenance as the sun, being as the Light, and His Light is the law in strength.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

The angel Christ sent are the authority of the church, and they are to testify these things noted: Who is Christ!

The Sabbath, Holy thou art

[Criado]

This is a issue of church teachings it is obvoius those that don't believe in it, will not accept its teaching. there is no exact time people, for it. As to the power and authority of the church to do such, it is from the power also to bind or loose sins given to the church though Peter.

The power given to church is the power to accept members (to bind) and to excommunicate them (to loose); not to bind and to loose sins.

If you could notice the restriction of the power, it is only earth-based.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Assuming for the sake of argument that purgatory does exists, and the power pertains to binding and losing of sins, then, even the church has no power to loose the sin of those who are in it because the power given to the church is only earth-bound.

[Tj3]

The power given to church is the power to accept members (to bind) and to excommunicate them (to loose); not to bind and to loose sins.

If you could notice the restriction of the power, it is only earth-based.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Assuming for the sake of argument that purgatory does exists, and the power pertains to binding and loosing of sins, then, even the church has no power to loose the sin of those who are in it because the power given to the church is only earth-bound.

Good points. It is also important to note that the reference in Matthew 16 is not given to a specific person, persons or church denomination, but rather to the universal church of those who are saved.

Also, we need to be careful regarding what those keys are. They are not the keys to forgive sin and thus determine who can enter heaven and who cannot. Jesus retained those keys.

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

We do have another set of keys mentioned in scripture.

Luke 11:51-53
52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
NKJV

The key of knowledge - they only key of knowledge that would stop ((bind) one from entering the kingdom would be the knowledge of the gospel. They knew the truth that was in scripture, and bound others from enter by not giving them the truth, and choose not to enter themselves. This key (he truth of the gospel) was given to the church and we were given the commandment to spread the gospel make disciples.

[sndbay]

Hopefully everyone will agree that with your free will, you would choose to do the Will of God... But one will believe that the priest was sent as the messenger, (angel) and does seek the Will of God with glory given to God.. and not himself or itself.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.
John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

[Peter Wilson]

Roman catholic ideas about purgatory (and prayers to help those in purgatory), were not the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. Such were not taught within the Romish church to any great degree until around 600 when Pope Gregory the Great made claims about a third state, a place for the purification of souls before their entrance into heaven and did not become an actual dogma until the Council of Florence in 1459.
During the twelfth century, a legend was spread which claimed that St. Patrick had found the actual entrance to purgatory. In order to convince some doubters, he had a deep pit dug in Ireland, into which several monks descended. Upon their return, said the tale, they described Purgatory and Hell with discouraging vividness. In 1153, the Irish knight, Owen, claimed he had also gone down through the pit into the underworld. Tourists came from far and near to visit the spot. Then financial abuses developed and in 1497, Pope Alexander VI ordered it closed as a fraud. Three years later, however, Pope benedict XIV preached and published a sermon in favor of Patrick's Purgatory. ( Babylon, Mystery Religion pages 70-71)
The Catholic church derives it's doctrine of paying indulgences, (paying to get sinners out of Purgatory) from 2 Machabees 12:38-46, a book that is full of doctrinal errors and so was not included in the collection of books we now know as the Bible.
In this story, Judas, an army commander, went into battle and in the course of things, took away the slain. The slain had idols under their coats and were supposed to be slain because of the just judgement of God. He sent 12000 drachmas of silver to Jerusalem to pay for the sacrifice to be offered for the dead, for he hoped that they that were slain would rise again from the dead. He considered that they who had fallen asleep had great godliness and had great grace laid up for them.It says in 2 Mach. 12: 46," It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they be loosed from sins. "
These guys were worshipping other Gods,. I'm sure that God would welcome them into Heaven because some-one paid a bit of cash... NOT!
It is contradictory to Deut.26:14, Psalm 49:6-7, 1 Peter 1:18, or when the sorcerer tried to buy the gift of God in Acts 8:20, Peter said to him "to hell with you and your money. how dare you think you could buy the gift of God". This is the literal translation of this verse, according to J.B. Phillips.
Also, Jesus said it was hard for a rich man to enter into Heaven, if buying indulgences was true, then Jesus was wrong, ( and I don't think that that is the case.)
Cheers. :)

[Peter Wilson]

I believe that binding and losing is dealing with the Kingdom of Heaven, that is, binding and losing those that have been afflicted by the enemy. We bind the demonic forces and loose those who are bound by them. The actual translation is " whatever you bind on earth, shall HAVE BEEN BOUND in Heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall HAVE BEEN LOOSED in Heaven.
We can only bind and loose what has already been bound or loosed in the heavenlies.
Jesus could only do what He saw his Father do, or say what He heard His Father say, it is the same for us, we can only do that that has been revealed to us by the Holy Spirit.
We do things by faith, but we are led to do it by the Holy Ghost.
We know that all sickness comes from the devil (Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. )
So we know Jesus assignment was to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.)
This is also our assignment, but we must hear and see what God has already bound in Heaven and whom He has loosed, so that we can do His work here also.
Luke 9
1Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.

2And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Luke 10
1After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

3Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

21In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

22All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:

24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Cheers. :)

[0rphan]

Denominations can claim anything they want the thing is studying to figure out what the Bible says and means.

Yes... I'll go along with that, there followers will also believe without question all of their teachings, as of course they should... so it goes on until someone questions it

[sndbay]

We know that all sickness comes from the devil (Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. )
these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

Cheers. :)

Just so you remember, pointing a finger at one to blame, there will be three fingers pointing back at you.. Responsibilities and accountability is in you. Satan can tempt you, but it up to you to rebuke satan, in the Name of Jesus with power that does cut off the devil.

Example: David to reap what was sown from not rebuking satan.. I Chronicles 21:1
Read for you must learn what following satan causes..

~Thank God for His teaching and blessing in "ALL" the Word