[De Maria]

ALSO the verses about the Judgment day of the believers and the crowns even says that Even though your works may be all burned up (leaving you with no works) yet you will be saved. So if your works are all burned up as if you had no works that were worthy then HOW do works save you????

De Marie:
They got you into Purgatory. Once your in Purgatory, you are saved. You just have to be cleansed of your sins:


So you are saying we go through TWO fires. One that burns our works and THEN one that burns our sins.

How do you come to the conclusion that Purgatory is after the Judgment?

I thought you agreed before that sins were works of iniquity? Or was it someone else?

And no, it's the same fire. The Consuming Fire that punishes in Hell, is the same Fire that cleanses in Purgatory and Glorifies in Heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Quite a story! It would be much better if you could actually validate the following claims using scripture:

1) That purgatory exists
2) That we are saved in the mythical place called purgatory
3) That we are not saved and perfected solely by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
4) that we can get out of the place of eternal fire.

The questions have been answered throughout this thread. Follow along now.

[Tj3]

I thought you agreed before that sins were works of iniquity? Or was it someone else?

And no, its the same fire. The Consuming Fire that punishes in Hell, is the same Fire that cleanses in Purgatory and Glorifies in Heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

So, you are saying that wherever we go after death, your view that we will all be in a lake of everlasting fire - right?

[Tj3]

The questions have been answered throughout this thread. Follow along now.

Avoiding questions again, De Maria? Tsk tsk.

[Peter Wilson]

Gosh Peter???

Couldn't you shorten it just a bit. Posting entire websites makes it kind of hard to have a decent discussion. Would you like for me to post the entire Catholic encyclopedia in response?

Besides, I think thats against the rules. Lets be reasonable, shall we?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sorry, it was a bit long, I actually scanned it from a book, seemed to work pretty good, I have never done that before.
I just bought a new Brother MFC- 465cn.
Seems to work pretty good!
Cheers.:)

[De Maria]

Sorry, it was a bit long, I actually scanned it from a book, seemed to work pretty good, I have never done that before.
I just bought a new Brother MFC- 465cn.
Seems to work pretty good!
Cheers.:)

Oh no!!

He's got a scanner!! :eek:

Seriously, though, that is handy. I've tried scanning stuff onto websites from my two bit machine but it never works.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Avoiding questions again, De Maria? Tsk tsk.

Naw. It was late and I was sleepy. I figgered if you wanted some answers sooner than I could provide them, you might follow the thread. The answers have all been previously provided:

1) That purgatory exists

Several verses have been provided from Scripture:
1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

And we've discussed the one about prison:
1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

2) That we are saved in the mythical place called purgatory

I think you're making the same logical error as Nohelp4u. Once in Purgatory, you are saved, as through fire.

Oh and Purgatory is neither a place nor is it mythical.

3) That we are not saved and perfected ... by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Did I say that? When?

In fact, I've said that Purgatory is the application of the graces released by the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

3a) That we are not saved and perfected solely by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

That is in Scripture:
Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

You see, the Bible does not teach we are perfected "solely" by the suffering of Christ on the Cross. The Bible teaches that we must also suffer:

Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

4) that we can get out of the place of eternal fire.

Who said that? Purgatory is not the place of eternal punishment.

Oh, wait, you said eternal fire. Who would want to do that?

God is Consuming Fire:
Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

God is eternal:
Daniel 6 26 It is decreed by me, that in all my empire and my kingdom all men dread and fear the God of Daniel. For he is the living and eternal God for ever: and his kingdom shall not be destroyed, and his power shall be for ever.

I, for one, am longing for union with that Eternal Fire!!

Luke 12 49 I am come to cast fire on the earth; and what will I, but that it be kindled?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Wondergirl]

I, for one, am longing for union with that Eternal Fire!!!

Have fun! I'll be in the celestial kitchen baking brownies.

[De Maria]

Have fun! I'll be in the celestial kitchen baking brownies.

Lol!! Good one!

[Tj3]

Naw. It was late and I was sleepy. I figgered if you wanted some answers sooner than I could provide them, you might follow the thread. The answers have all been previously provided:

Let's have a look at what you say are answers.

Several verses have been provided from Scripture:
1 Corinthians 3 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

And we've discussed the one about prison:
1 Peter 3 19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison:

How many times must you be shown that, in context, these do not say what you claim.

I think you're making the same logical error as Nohelp4u. Once in Purgatory, you are saved, as through fire.

It is not enolugh for you to say it - where is it in scripture?

Oh and Purgatory is neither a place nor is it mythical.

Half right - it is not a place.

D

id I say that? When?

Many times in many ways. But rather than spending time arguing whether you did say it, if you agree that we are saved and perfected by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross alone, then there is no need for the mythical place of purgatory.

Colossians 1 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:

You see, the Bible does not teach we are perfected "solely" by the suffering of Christ on the Cross. The Bible teaches that we must also suffer:

Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Colossians referws to sufferings in the flesh, not in the mythical place of purgatory.

Heb 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Note the past tense?

Who said that? Purgatory is not the place of eternal punishment.

Oh, wait, you said eternal fire.

So you are saying that purgatory will go away? It is not eternal?

Who would want to do that?

Do what - get out of eternal fire? Who wouldn't?

God is Consuming Fire:
Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Yes, we have been through that already. Are you planning to be on the receiving end of God's anger for His enemies?

[De Maria]

Let's have a look at what you say are answers.
How many times must you be shown that, in context, these do not say what you claim.

Once at a minimum. But you have yet to show anything.

It is not enolugh for you to say it - where is it in scripture?

Nor is it enough for you to simply deny it.

Half right - it is not a place. D

You are reduced to quips? If you have an argument make it.

Many times in many ways. But rather than spending time arguing whether you did say it, if you agree that we are saved and perfected by Jesus' sacrifice on the cross alone, then there is no need for the mythical place of purgatory.

Whether there is a need for purgatory is a moot point. It is a reality which God has revealed.

Colossians referws to sufferings in the flesh, not in the mythical place of purgatory.

But the point is that Colossians mentions the:

and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ

That is pretty explicit. The suffering of Christ is wanting.

Heb 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
NKJV

Note the past tense?

Duly noted. Note the "are being sanctified." In other words, they have not yet been but will be in the future.

So you are saying that purgatory will go away? It is not eternal?

Apocalypse 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. 14 And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.

Note that death and hell (or hades) gives up its dead. And the dead are judged according to their works. Then hell and death are cast into the pool of fire.

Of the dead who were judged, if they were not found in the book of life, they are also cast into the pool of fire.

So, yes, purgatory will go away.

Do what - get out of eternal fire? Who wouldn't?

I suppose if you believe that God is not eternal fire, you would not want eternal fire.

However, I believe Scripture. Our God is a consuming fire. And how I long to be consumed by that Fire.

Yes, we have been through that already. Are you planning to be on the receiving end of God's anger for His enemies?

No. If we love God, we have no need to fear fire.

1 Machabees 2 59 Ananias and Azarias and Misael by believing, were delivered out of the flame.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Once at a minimum. But you have yet to show anything.

Actually that is not true. You need to be shown at least once (you must have been shown at least a couple of dozen times), but does nothing unless you read it at least once.

Nor is it enough for you to simply deny it.

Which is why we keep showing you what scripture says.

It is a reality which God has revealed.

Well out with it - have you been holding back? Where did God reveal it?

But the point is that Colossians mentions the:

and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ

That is pretty explicit. The suffering of Christ is wanting.

I wuish you would get a decent tranlsation. Clearly it is causing you a great deal of difficulty.

Col 1:21-29
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. 29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.
NKJV

Not that the context and the topic is the suffering of Paul in the flesh, not the suffering of Christ. Paul is referring to his suffering in the flesh for the cause of Christ. But in any case, even if your erroneous translation were used, it still says nothing about suffering after death, so though we could debate this point further, your point is already lost.

Duly noted. Note the "are being sanctified." In other words, they have not yet been but will be in the future.

Yep that is what I am saying. Note that sanctification occurs in the flesh, so you cannot claim that this has anything to do with purgatory either.

Apocalypse 20
13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. 14 And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.

The fiery place referred to here is hell, so are you therefore conceding that purgatory is in fact "hell"?

I suppose if you believe that God is not eternal fire, you would not want eternal fire.

However, I believe Scripture. Our God is a consuming fire. And how I long to be consumed by that Fire.

Even though you have been warned that it is symbolic of how God destroys those who are His enemies. That is quite an admission on your part.

1 Machabees 2 59 Ananias and Azarias and Misael by believing, were delivered out of the flame.

You do know that even Maccabees itself says that it is not an inspired work.

[Lilmkiss]

The early Christian Church was Greek-speaking; it therefore used
The LXX. Even though the LXX sometimes gave different readings
From the original Hebrew and had "extra" books interspersed with
The rest, the early Church believed it to be inspired. "With
regard to whatever is in the Septuagint that is not in the Hebrew
manuscripts, we can say that the one Spirit wished to say to them
through the writers of the former rather than through the latter
in order to show that both the one and the other were inspired"
(St. Augustine, City of God, 18:43).

Hence the Orthodox Church uses only the LXX and not the original
Hebrew as the official inspired OT. The LXX, compared to the
Hebrew Bible, has the following additional books: Tobit, Judith,
Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch (including the Letter of
Jeremias), 1-3 Machabees, Prayer of Manasseh, Psalm 151, 1
Esdras, additions to Esther and Daniel, and very rarely, 4
Machabees since it was not widely available and was never
Considered inspired.

This is not my work this was written by as far as I can tell the author of the web site http://www.traditio.com/tradlib/bible.txt

But is explains why in simple terms why Maccabees is not and inspired work of God(aka the original bible was written by you guess it the Jew's and these books where never used by them there for since they are the original writers of the bible I would be overly confident in the fact that if they say that those books are not books inspired by God that they aren't plain and simple. (only when it comes to the old testament!)

[Tj3]

but is explains why in simple terms why Maccabees is not and inspired work of God(aka the original bible was written by you guess it the Jew's and these books where never used by them there for since they are the original writers of the bible i would be overly confident in the fact that if they say that those books are not books inspired by God that they arn't plain and simple. (only when it comes to the old testament!)

Maccabees has internal evidence that it is not inspired:

2 Maccabees 15:37-38
This then is how matters turned out with Nicanor, and from that time the city has been in the possession of the Hebrews. So I will here end my story. If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that was the best I could do.
NRSV

Clearly the author is giving no credit to divine inspiration. He takes full credit and full responsibility for the contents.

[Fr_Chuck]

Post closed, no attacking members and attacking faith of other people.