 |
|
| Browse | Ask | Answer | Search | Join/Login |
|
|
||||
|
De Maria,
To attempt to find scriptural support for purgatory you have appealed to Luke 16:24, 1 Peter 3:19, and 1 Corinthians 3:15. I checked out each verse carefully. Here is what I found: Regarding the use of Luke 16:24, it seems that the fathers are in agreement that the rich man went to hell, not purgatory. Secondly, purgatory is supposedly a temporary state, yet Luke 16:26 indicates that the situation that the rich man finds himself in is permanent. In addition to that, as I understand it, the church teaches that only that those who die in God's grace and friendship go to Purgatory. From the text it does not appear that such was the case for the rich man. Lastly, the pope himself declared that rich man went to hell. I don't believe that 1 Peter 3:19 is speaking about purgatory. Those that Christ preached to in the prison mentioned in that text were not human. The word translated “spirit” in that text refers to non human spirit beings unless modified in some way. (See also Matthew 12:45; Acts 23:8,9; Luke 10:20; Ephesians 2:2; Hebrews 1:14.) As far as I've been able to determine, the church teaches that humans end up in purgatory, not non human spirit beings. If Christ had gone to purgatory, what would be his purpose? The use of 1 Corinthians 3:15 is popular among Catholics to support the notion of purgatory, but read carefully and in context, I don't believe that it does so. For instance, if Paul is speaking about purgatory in that text, what is the reward mentioned in v.14 of the 3rd chapter of 1 Corinthians? Rob |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Good points
The rich man went to Hell not purgatory If Christ had gone to purgatory, what would be his purpose? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
 Originally Posted by N0help4u
Lets look at how David for a second. 2 Kings 12 14 Nevertheless, because thou hast given occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, for this thing, the child that is born to thee, shall surely die. Why did Nathan say this to David? Had David repented of his sin? Had David been forgiven by God? Yet David paid for his sin by the death of his son: 13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die. Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
13 And David said to Nathan: I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David: The Lord also hath taken away thy sin: thou shalt not die.
The Lord HATH taken away thy sin... therefore it means David did not have to wait for some purgatory |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Hey Nohelp4u, good to know that there are other true believers out there. Keep being led by the desires of the Spirit, not the flesh, that is, the feelings and emotions that God wants us to enjoy, namely, the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace etc. Not by the fruit or desires of the flesh, i.e.. Self indulgence, hate, greed, sexual lust, coveting etc.
The Holy Spirit is teaching me about this over the last couple of weeks. I never thought of it that way before, recognize the feeling and determine if it is from God or the enemy. Today, I was facing a certain situation, and I felt fear about it. God made me aware of the emotion and I realized that this is not a God emotion. I commanded the fear to go immediately and it did. I chose to feel one of God's emotions, to be strong and of good courage and of course, joy, and not only did I get victory over the feeling, but I was blessed in the situation also. God is so good! God put it in my heart a few weeks ago to discover His nature, the nature of Christ being formed in us. I Nehemiah 9:17, the last half of the verse, it says, " You are a God of forgiveness, gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in loving kindness." That's the nature and the feelings that I want, how about you? Hebrews 1:3 (New American Standard Bible) 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Nohelp4u- I added this reply for the content, I know you understand. Peace.) |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
God has been showing me that being free in your spirit is not about a bunch of man made do and don'ts but of course you have to back everything up with what God has to say.
Too many people are caught up in their religious formulas and set God and the leading of the Holy Spirit aside to the point they are blind to what 'set your spirit free' really means. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
[QUOTE=De Maria]
It appears that rhadsen has done a good job at addressing some of your mis-understandings, so I do not need to repe4at that which he has already addressed.
I never said 1 John 1:9 is in error.
But you've ignored all my question concerning the verses where St. Peter and St. Paul both explain that we pay not only for our own sins but for each others.
Did anyone say that we cleanse ourselves from our sin in Purgatory? Who?
And it is Scripture which says that one who suffered in the flesh has ceased with sin and that St. Paul rejoices in his suffering for us. So please address those questions which I asked. How can we cease with sin by suffering in the flesh? And how can St. Paul rejoice in his suffering for us? Not only that but filling in his flesh that which is WANTING in the suffering of Christ?
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
I already responded to this message but I missed this comment:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Yes if you haven't. Along with Purgatory is the accompanying doctrine of the Purgative Way. In other words, whatever we sin we haven't repented and satisfied in this life, will be cleansed in the next in Purgatory. Simple example: Your son has broken the neighbors window. He repents and says he is sorry. Is the neighbor satisfied? Probably not. But your son doesn't have the money to pay for the window to be fixed. What to do? You, the parent pay for the window and your son pays you back out of his allowance. Even if you don't demand your son pay you back for the window, the neighbor is paid and the debt satisfied. This example also explains indulgences. You have paid and made satisfaction for the your son's sin. Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jesus paid for our sins and God knows or heart and it is up to God to forgive us.
Judgment day is about are works being tested not our salvation. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
I'm glad TJ mentioned you in his(?) next post. I missed your message the first time around. Good question.
Originally Posted by rhadsen
45. This early Jewish idea of an intermediate state includes the view that these souls are not simply in a sort of temporary custody but, as the parable of the rich man illustrates, are already being punished or are experiencing a provisional form of bliss. There is also the idea that this state can involve purification and healing which mature the soul for communion with God. The early Church took up these concepts, and in the Western Church they gradually developed into the doctrine of Purgatory. "Spe Salvi" - Encyclical Letter of His Holiness Benedict XVI on Christian Hope Considering that this man was also the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith before he was Pope. I think he knows a bit more about Catholic Doctrine than either you or I.
Secondly, purgatory is supposedly a temporary state, yet Luke 16:26 indicates that the situation that the rich man finds himself in is permanent.
In addition to that, as I understand it, the church teaches that only that those who die in God’s grace and friendship go to Purgatory. From the text it does not appear that such was the case for the rich man.
Lastly, the pope himself declared that rich man went to hell.
I don’t believe that 1 Peter 3:19 is speaking about purgatory. Those that Christ preached to in the prison mentioned in that text were not human.
19 In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison: 20 Which had been some time incredulous, when they waited for the patience of God in the days of Noe, when the ark was a building: wherein a few, that is, eight souls, were saved by water.
The word translated “spirit” in that text refers to non human spirit beings unless modified in some way.
(See also Matthew 12:45; Acts 23:8,9; Luke 10:20; Ephesians 2:2; Hebrews 1:14.)
As far as I’ve been able to determine, the church teaches that humans end up in purgatory, not non human spirit beings. If Christ had gone to purgatory, what would be his purpose?
The use of 1 Corinthians 3:15 is popular among Catholics to support the notion of purgatory, but read carefully and in context, I don’t believe that it does so. For instance, if Paul is speaking about purgatory in that text, what is the reward mentioned in v.14 of the 3rd chapter of 1 Corinthians?
Rob
De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by Tj3
so I do not need to repe4at that which he has already addressed.
Good because if it is not in error, then you must accept that jesus paid the price for ALL inquity and takes away ALL inquity from all who are saved. That being the case, we cannot pay the price for any sin if we are saved, since it has already been paid.
However, we are taught that the entire Scriptures were inspired by the same Holy Spirit. Therefore, if the Holy Spirit says in one verse that we must make satisfaction for our sins. We can't disregard that verse. Again, if we see that David had to pay for the temporal effects of his sin by the death of his child even though God had already forgiven him. Then we must make satisfaction for effects of our sins even though God has already forgiven us. God doesn't change.
You have not shown me any verses that say that they paid the price for their sins or others.. Only that they suffered for the sake of the gospel. That is much different.
If St. Paul isn't talking about suffering for our sin, then why is he suffering and making up for the suffering which he says is WANTING in the suffering of Christ. Didn't Christ suffer and die for our sins? So, please quit ignoring the questions any longer. Why do we cease from sin when we suffer in the flesh? Answer the questions.
Trying to backtrack? So if you are now saying that we do not pay the rpcie for sin in purgatory, then what is your claim for the purpose of purgatory?
Answer the question. Who said that "we" cleansed "ourselves" in Purgatory? Who? Purgatory is the direct application of the Blood of Christ: Ephesians 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Read the context - He is referring clearly to suffering for the sake of promoting the truth of scripture. If you can find any verse which says that he is paying the rpice for his or anyone else's sin, please post that verse.
St. Peter says "suffer in flesh, cease with sin." Therefore suffeirng in the flesh eliminates sin. And St. Paul is says he is adding to the suffering "WANTING" in the suffering of Christ. Did Christ suffer for our sins or not? Then St. Paul says he is suffering for our sins also. But lets go back to the Master: Matthew 16 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Christ took up the Cross for our sins. Whose sins do we take up with our cross? Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Matthew 16 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Judgment day is about are works being tested not our salvation.
1 Corinthians 3 11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
What Bible verse says we must make satisfaction other than to repent?
If St. Paul isn't talking about suffering for our sin, then why is he suffering and making up for the suffering which he says is WANTING in the suffering of Christ. Yes we can suffer for our sins HERE on earth but does that say we suffer for our sins after death in some purgatory? I really do not see it! Purgatory is the direct application of the Blood of Christ: Ephesians 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Just as you claim that hath seems to mean afterlife when the context is the here and now you seem to be doing the same thing with this verse. They are both already here for the believer not something that happens in purgatory. Christ took up the Cross for our sins. Whose sins do we take up with our cross? Agreed so why do you insist it is something that purgatory has to take care of?? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by De Maria
What is your point Sounds totally taken out of context Jesus gave us the opportunity to come after him and follow him It is up to us to follow so how does that prove purgatory? |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Scripture Itself tells you what that means: Galatians 5 24 And they that are Christ's, have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences. 1 Peter 4 1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins: 1 Peter 2 21 For unto this are you called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving you an example that you should follow his steps. What example did Jesus give that we should follow? He suffered and died for our sins. Therefore, take up your cross and suffer for your sins and for your fellow man: John 15 13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Oh so you switched up the conversation from purgatory. I thought you were trying to use that verse to back up purgatory
|
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by N0help4u
I thought you were trying to use that verse to back up purgatory
In Purgatory, we pay for the effects of our sins which we haven't paid for in this life. Lets get back to the example of David's sin. God forgave him and erased his sin. But the effects of his sin remained. Specifically, because David gave occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme (2 Kings 12 26), David's son had to die. If David's son had not died in payment for David's sin, and if David had not made reparation in another manner before his death. David himself would have paid for this sin in Purgatory. So first we have to establish that there is a doctrine of suffering for expiation of sin in this life. Then we can prove that for those who love God but die in an imperfect state of grace, there is also expiation of sin in the next. You follow? Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Yes we can suffer for our sins HERE on earth but does that say we suffer for our sins after death in some purgatory? I really do not see it!
So tell me, what is keeping us from suffering for our sins after death? Is God not merciful enough to cleanse us Himself before we enter heaven. After all, nothing impure will enter therein (Rev 21:27) and how many people die in a state of perfect purity?
Purgatory is the direct application of the Blood of Christ:
Ephesians 2 13 But now in Christ Jesus, you, who some time were afar off, are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Just as you claim that hath seems to mean afterlife when the context is the here and now you seem to be doing the same thing with this verse. They are both already here for the believer not something that happens in purgatory. Apocalypse 7 14 And I said to him: My Lord, thou knowest. And he said to me: These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Agreed so why do you insist it is something that purgatory has to take care of??
Philippians 1 6 Being confident of this very thing, that he, who hath begun a good work in you, will perfect it unto the day of Christ Jesus. Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Lets get back to the example of David's sin. God forgave him and erased his sin. But the effects of his sin remained. Specifically, because David gave occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme (2 Kings 12 26), David's son had to die.
If David's son had not died in payment for David's sin, and if David had not made reparation in another manner before his death. David himself would have paid for this sin in Purgatory. So tell me, what is keeping us from suffering for our sins after death? So if your circumstances like child dying and all the suffering we go through for not repenting take care of our unrepented sin why would God allow us to die with unrepented sin so that there has to be a purgatory? Why wouldn't he just allow you to suffer all the punishment here on earth? I understand God purifies our works through the fire but I don't see it quite the way you explain it with purgatory. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Originally Posted by N0help4u
2. As for why God does what He does? God's ways are far above our ways. But I believe God's ways are just. To put it simply, "I don't make up the rules. I just follow them. "
I understand God purifies our works through the fire but I don't see it quite the way you explain it with purgatory.
We believe it means to purify our souls since we don't take anything with us. Sincerely, De Maria |
||||
|
|
Not your question?
Ask your question
View similar questions
| Question Tools | Search this Question |
Check out some similar questions!
How long does it take long term vicodin consumption to exit your system?
[ 7 Answers ]
If you have been on vicodin for a long time how long does it take to get out of your system.
How long is too long to have depression?
[ 7 Answers ]
I'm Ariel and am 16 years old. I have had depression for about 7 years starting around the time my parents were getting a divorce. My mother took me and my 3 other sisters to a Phsyciatrist for about a year then took us out for awhile then took me back in all within 2 years. I have been very strong...
How long I'm I going to last with my lover will it be long?
[ 4 Answers ]
How Long Will I Last With My Lover?
Long-short-long
[ 2 Answers ]
Hey you Okay I have a dilemma.For along time I had Long hair(almost to my butt)but then I started working out and it would get sweaty so I cut it shorter(wayyy shorter like I cut off over 20 inches)but now I kind of miss my long locks! All I can do is wait.But every time I had long hair somehow I...
Do You Believe in Purgatory?
[ 13 Answers ]
I was wondering whether their really was a Pergatory. It has been a long time since I was a Catholic. I call myself a non-denominational Christian. While I definitely do not believe in" venial" sin, I am believing in Pergatory again. I recently had an experience in my Spirit, and...
View more questions Search
|
