[massplumber2008]

Hi Steve:

NOPE... sorry, adding washing machine anywhere on the toilet drain line is a No-NO when it comes to WET VENTING... OK?

You would be better to cut a 3"x2" wye into the vertical stack above the toilet sanitary TY fitting and then running pipe over to where it needs to go... again hanging every 4 feet with 1/4" pitch per foot of piping. You would also install a 2" cleanout like you have installed at the 4" drain line and then reduce the tankless heater drain line to 1.5"... add P-TRAP, and I am afraid, an individual 1.5" vent is needed, too.

You may also be required to add a TRAP PRIMER to this installation... depending on how often condensation/discharge from the tankless heater occurs... BUT, as I always seem to say to people... You need to check with your plumbing inspector to see if you need to do this... ok?

A trap primer is simple device that spills about a tablespoon of water into the p-trap every time a fixture it is hooked to is operated (usually hooked to a sink water line and then copper pipe is usually run over to the trap (pipe must pitch for water to fall via gravity to p-trap). This will prevent the p-trap from ever drying out and allowing sewer gas to flood the house/basement, etc.

Never easy huh Steve... ;)

Check into the trap primer... let us know if need more.

MARK

[stevekem]

Geez.. Is that I all I have to do :p Would I be allowed to run a 3/4" pvc drain line (like used in HVAC) from the closet to a floor drain in basement?

Also, I am having a air handler installed in our attic for our 2nd floor heating/AC, I was told by the HVAC company that I could run a 3/4" PVC drain line through attic, down 2nd floor and 1st floor walls (closet space) and drain into floor drain in basement, would this be allowed?

Hi Steve:

NOPE...sorry, adding washing machine anywhere on the toilet drain line is a No-NO when it comes to WET VENTING...OK?

You would be better to cut a 3"x2" wye into the vertical stack above the toilet sanitary TY fitting and then running pipe over to where it needs to go...again hanging every 4 feet with 1/4" pitch per foot of piping. You would also install a 2" cleanout like you have installed at the 4" drain line and then reduce the tankless heater drain line to 1.5"....add P-TRAP, and I am afraid, an individual 1.5" vent is needed, too.

You may also be required to add a TRAP PRIMER to this installation...depending on how often condensation/discharge from the tankless heater occurs.............BUT, as I always seem to say to people.........You need to check with your plumbing inspector to see if you need to do this...ok??

A trap primer is simple device that spills about a tablespoon of water into the p-trap every time a fixture it is hooked to is operated (usually hooked to a sink water line and then copper pipe is usually run over to the trap (pipe must pitch for water to fall via gravity to p-trap). This will prevent the p-trap from ever drying out and allowing sewer gas to flood the house/basement, etc.

Never easy huh Steve...;)

Check into the trap primer....let us know if need more.

MARK

[massplumber2008]

YUP! All allowed...

In some states that floor drain won't require a vent. In most, it will require the vent.

My state would want a trap primer in this circumstance as well... ;)

Let us know what happens will you?

MARK

[stevekem]

Uh oh... Ran into an issue today :( It appears the path I originally choose to run the vent from the 1st floor sink is not going to work (I'd have to cutout 2 1/2" of a 4" header in a loading bearing wall). I should have realized this at first, but I didn't.

Are you allowed to run the vent for the 1st floor bathroom group from a connection under the floor such as via a WYE on horizontal run of the sink drain line?

If no connection under the floor is allowed, is there a limit on the # of 90's that can be used on the vent lines?

Also, do I have to use a long sweep 90 when connecting to toilet flange or a regular 90 is fine?

Are there requirements by code as far a distances you have to stub out the drain and supply lines from walls or floors? Or toilet supply stubout?

Is there a required # shut off valves needed (not talking about the chrome ones under sinks or toilet tanks)?

I was only putting a shutoff valve before/after meter and on tankless water heater. My house I live in now has shutoff's in the basement everywhere (most leak too), they have ones to shutoff the water to the 2nd floor, ones to shutoff the water right before shower faucet. etc..

And lastly, I understand you have to support horizontal lines every 4 feet, but are vertical lines required to have any clamps or supports?

Thank you all once again, hopefully I'll get this right soon!


P.S. Inspector says I'm allowed to use AAV on laundry standpipe and vent pipe must extend out roof 12" (minimum) to 16" from lowest side of roof which you are going through.

[massplumber2008]

Steve.. I'm off to fly remote control airplanes with my kid... I'll be back around 9:00 or so. Check back then for my reply.. ok?

Talk soon... MARK

[stevekem]

No problem at all Mark, I appreciate the help. I have a remote control helicopter, sure wish I could keep it in the air for more than 2 minutes without crashing :)

Steve..I'm off to fly remote control airplanes with my kid...I'll be back around 9:00 or so. Check back then for my reply..ok??

Talk soon...MARK

[massplumber2008]

Hi Steve:

Always amazes me to see a little person fly anything (kites, airplanes, helicopters... even paper airplanes).. even if only for a minute or two. We actually flew kites this weekend over 100 feet in the air... good times!

Lucky you that you get to use an AAV at the standpipe! Just be sure it is readily accessible... as per code requirement!

And sorry... NO... there is no way to run a WET VENT system from under the floor. In fact, except for an island sink installation there are no vents that are allowed to run up to fixture and then back down under floor to then run a distance and then run up the wall and connect into a vent 6 inches above flood level rim... so again, simply cannot run vent for entire bathroom from under the bathroom...:(

May be a good idea to ask inspector to drop by for a minute if he has to inspect all this anyway. If nice guy, maybe he'll pop out for fun. If super busy guy, may charge an inspection fee and then require a "reinspection fee"... but if it saves you time and labor, may be worth investigating this (reinspection fees in my area are $25.00 to $50.00).. doesn't hurt to call!

Now, there is not a LIMITED number of elbows as much as there is a LIMITED DISTANCE that a vent can run. If I remember correctly, total horizontal distance cannot exceed 1/3 overall length of total developed distance (length) of vent... here a vent with a total developed length of 30 feet should only have a 10 foot horizontal section of piping to vent. AT least that is how my code book calls it... ;)
Check with your inspector to see if he agrees.

Toilets can connect to toilet flange via regular 90 or even a street 90 if necessary.

STUBOUTs:

Toilet water is usually six inches left of center of toilet flange and 6" to 8" high off finish floor.
Toilet drain at 11.5" to 12" to center off finish wall.

Lavatory drain is usually 17-18" off finish floor.
Lavatory water is usually 20" off finish floor.

Check specification sheets of planned fixtures to be more specific...ok??

Shutoffs:

At each individual fixture as you know... then I would isolate the bathroom itself if possible (costs $30.00 now for 2 shutoffs).. if not, not required as you presented your house layout!

Finally, you should plan on supporting/strapping vertical pipes at each floor level... mostly common sense here. Don't span entire floor without some vertical support at mid pipe somehow (straps or clips work great).

Keep me posted on this...

Good night! Mark

[stevekem]

Hello Mark,

I just wanted to thank you once again for your help and for answering my many, many questions. Hopefully I have all the information I need to finish this correctly so I can move on to the next phase. Maybe when I'm done I'll take some pictures and post them after inspection. Now if I could just get my solder joints to look good :rolleyes:

Have a good night!

- Steve

[stevekem]

Hello Mark,

How are you? I started the copper rough in today and I was wondering, do they sell compression type straight and angle shut offs for 3/4" copper or do you always have to reduce down to 1/2" at stub out for the toilet and sinks?

Also, should I reduce down to 1/2" right before connecting to shower/tub faucet or keep it at 3/4" the whole !way?

Is there a certain distance you have to keep the copper spaced when running to the faucet? Like 8" center to center, etc?


Thanks again

- Steve

[massplumber2008]

Hi Steve:

I'm great... how are you? How did you finally work out your vent issue?

Reduce the 3/4" to 1/2" at the sink and toilet... then purchase normal straight and angle compression shutoffs as needed (see pic. Below... ordered as a 5/8" OD compression by 3/8" OD compression ANGLE or STRAIGHT stop). You'll also want to pick up some 1/2" copper tubing size or 5/8" OD copper tubing size flanges to cover the holes.

After installing the shutoffs you will need to hold against yourself and tighten the packing nut as in my 3rd picture below. Just 'til nut feels snug.. ok? These leak a lot AFTER installation... so give a little TWEAK to the packing nut and you should be all set.

The tub/shower valve... if it has 3/4" inlets then feed it full size 3/4" copper tubing. Here, more volume is never a bad thing. If inlets to valve are 1/2" reduce anywhere along the line and will be fine, too!

In terms of center to center... no absolutes here unless pipes are going to be exposed then there are standards to adhere too.

For bathroom sinks I usually pipe water at 20" off finish floor, at 6 or 8" centers...

For toilets, water is generally 6" over from center of toilet flange and 6-8" off finish floor.

Flexible connectors will then allow FLEXIBILITY in connecting shutoffs to sink and toilet.

Always best to check the ROUGH in sheet for the toilets though as some toilets nowadays want water roughed as high as 10" off finish floor... so double check your installation instructions.. ok?

Hope that answered your questions... let me know when/if have more...

MARK

[stevekem]

Hello Mark,

Regarding the vent issue, I ended up using (4) 45's to angle the vent around the header and go through to the 2nd floor bathroom. No matter which way I went with the vent, I had a choice to use (2) 90's or (4) 45's, so I went with the (4) 45's way. I was easier this way anyway :) I tied this vent into the 2nd floor sink vent about 60" from floor using upside down sanitary tee, which then runs up to attic and ties into 3" stack vent (using upside down 3 x 2 sanitary tee) that goes through roof.

Thanks again for your reply.

- Steve

Hi Steve:

I'm great...how are you? How did you finally work out your vent issue??

Reduce the 3/4" to 1/2" at the sink and toilet....then purchase normal straight and angle compression shutoffs as needed (see pic. below....ordered as a 5/8" OD compression by 3/8" OD compression ANGLE or STRAIGHT stop). You'll also want to pick up some 1/2" copper tubing size or 5/8" OD copper tubing size flanges to cover the holes.

After installing the shutoffs you will need to hold against yourself and tighten the packing nut as in my 3rd picture below. Just 'til nut feels snug..ok?? These leak alot AFTER installation...so give a little TWEAK to the packing nut and you should be all set.

The tub/shower valve...if it has 3/4" inlets then feed it full size 3/4" copper tubing. Here, more volume is never a bad thing. If inlets to valve are 1/2" reduce anywhere along the line and will be fine, too!!

In terms of center to center....no absolutes here unless pipes are going to be exposed then there are standards to adhere too.

For bathroom sinks I usually pipe water at 20" off finish floor, at 6 or 8" centers...

For toilets, water is generally 6" over from center of toilet flange and 6-8" off finish floor.

Flexible connectors will then allow FLEXIBILITY in connecting shutoffs to sink and toilet.

Always best to check the ROUGH in sheet for the toilets though as some toilets nowadays want water roughed as high as 10" off finish floor...so double check your installation instructions..ok??

Hope that answered your questions...let me know when/if have more...

MARK

[stevekem]

Hello Mark,

I got the copper all roughed in and I was just wondering, is there a certain way to test for leaks in sections of pipe that have air trapped in them?

I do not have any valves in yet (stubouts just capped) for my sinks, showers, toilets so when I turned the water on today, the water only filled the lines to a certain point and stopped because of trapped air. Could I brush all the joints with dishsoap and look for air bubbles, will this show the smallest of leaks?

I do not want to sheetrock everything and discover leaks later on. Any suggestions?

Also, if I do discover any leaks, can I reheat the joint and apply flux and solder to reseal?

Thanks!

[massplumber2008]

Hi Steve:

Good for you!

You can either test by just turning on the water on (air would leak out if leak was present, i.e. you would hear the leak and then see it as air worked its way out the leak and then water showed up, OR you could hook an air compressor to a point in the system and pump that up to 100PSI to 125 PSI.

Air pressure test guarantees that any sneaky little leaks will be found..

If you do find a leak, drain the system down and try to reheat/flux/solder. If that doesn't fix it then will need to cut out and repipe to repair it!

Let me know if have more questions...

MARK

[stevekem]

How would I hook the compressor up to a joint?

Would I pump it up to 100 -125 PSI and if no air leak sounds are present it's good to go -or- do I hold it at that pressure for awhile and see if any pressure drops occur?

OR you could hook an air compressor to a point in the system and pump that up to 100PSI to 125 PSI.

Air pressure test guarantees that any sneaky little leaks will be found..

[massplumber2008]

Good question!

Just need to cut off one of the caps and then adapt over to a test
Apparatus...

Here you will need to solder a 1/2" copper x male adapter onto any 1/2" coper pipe at any sink, for example. Then attach a 1/2" IPS black or brass tee fitting and then reduce the tee down to 1/8" (1/2"male x 1/8" female bushing) and add a 1/8" shrader valve and then reduce other part of tee down to 1/4" (1/2" male x 1/4" female bushing) and purchase a 1/4" 100-125 PSI pressure gauge.

Then connect all together and then pump the system up using an air compressor with a fill tip on it (like at a gas station).

Pump system up and hold test for 1/2hour... after that, no leaks, you will be sure of no issues in the future... promise!

A plumbing supply house will have all this stuff (bring list)... not home depot!

Check out the pictures below to see some of the ways some people set these up. The shrader valve is on right side.

I described a simple way to set up, you can do it however you want. You can also just use the water to test with if you want... but can miss a leak/loose joint sometimes so this is best way.. ok?

Let us know how you make out...



MARK

[stevekem]

Great, thanks for the info. I will let you know how it goes. Thanks again!

Good question!!

Just need to cut off one of the caps and then adapt over to a test
apparatus...

Here you will need to solder a 1/2" copper x male adapter onto any 1/2" coper pipe at any sink, for example. Then attach a 1/2" IPS black or brass tee fitting and then reduce the tee down to 1/8" (1/2"male x 1/8" female bushing) and add a 1/8" shrader valve and then reduce other part of tee down to 1/4" (1/2" male x 1/4" female bushing) and purchase a 1/4" pressure guage.

Then connect all together and then pump the system up using an air compressor with a fill tip on it (like at a gas station).

Pump system up and hold test for 1/2hour....after that, no leaks, you will be sure of no issues in the future...prmoise!!

A plumbing supply house will have all this stuff (bring list)...not home depot!!

Check out the pictures below to see some of the ways some people set these up. The shrader valves are on right side.

Let us know how you make out...



MARK

[stevekem]

Hi Mark,

I finally got around to pressure testing the copper. I was only able to pressurize it up to 70 PSI because I had to use a portable air tank (I do not have a 120 volt air compressor) and my tank was running low today so that's all the higher I was able to get up to. With that said, I kept it pressurized for 5 hours and it dropped 6 PSI total. I looked and listened for any leaks, but I could not see/hear any.

I do have 2 ball valves (hot/cold) that are currently not connected on the other end yet (these will supply our new kitchen lines when I get to that point), could these be leaking at 70 PSI?

Should I have any pressure drop at all?


Thanks again!

Good question!!

Just need to cut off one of the caps and then adapt over to a test
apparatus...

Here you will need to solder a 1/2" copper x male adapter onto any 1/2" coper pipe at any sink, for example. Then attach a 1/2" IPS black or brass tee fitting and then reduce the tee down to 1/8" (1/2"male x 1/8" female bushing) and add a 1/8" shrader valve and then reduce other part of tee down to 1/4" (1/2" male x 1/4" female bushing) and purchase a 1/4" 100-125 PSI pressure guage.

Then connect all together and then pump the system up using an air compressor with a fill tip on it (like at a gas station).

Pump system up and hold test for 1/2hour....after that, no leaks, you will be sure of no issues in the future...promise!!

A plumbing supply house will have all this stuff (bring list)...not home depot!!

Check out the pictures below to see some of the ways some people set these up. The shrader valve is on right side.

I described a simple way to set up, you can do it however you want. You can also just use the water to test with if you want...but can miss a leak/loose joint sometimes so this is best way..ok??

Let us know how you make out...



MARK

[speedball1]

I kept it pressurized for 5 hours and it dropped 6 PSI total. I looked and listened for any leaks, but I could not see/hear any. Should I have any pressure drop at all?

While water will not compress, even water will drop a little bit. Air compresses and a small drop is normal. If all you had is a 6 PSI drop in 5 hours with a 70 PSI head of pressure I would say you're just fine. I like to water test with air because if you hear or feel a leak you can shut the air off, bleed the system down and repair the leak. With a water test you must evacuate all the water out before you can start to repair. Air's much faster and easier. Good luck, sounds like you got it nailed. Tom