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Wondergirl · Jul 22, 2008, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by tawnynkids

No, I don't. Lots of Calvinists do quote Luther actually. Your statement that it isn't up to us to believe hints at Calvinism. If I am wrong forgive me. I was just wondering.

It's Lutheran belief, M-S or ELCA, with no hinting.

Tj3 · Jul 22, 2008, 09:59 PM

Josh 24:21-22
22 So Joshua said to the people, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD for yourselves, to serve Him." And they said, "We are witnesses!"
NKJV

Josh 24:14-16
15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
NKJV

tawnynkids · Jul 22, 2008, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

M-S or ELCA

Uhh, I don't know what those mean would mind explaining for me?

Wondergirl · Jul 22, 2008, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by tawnynkids

uhh, I don't know what those mean would mind explaining for me?

Two of the largest Lutheran church bodies in the U.S. are the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) and the Missouri-Synod (LCMS or M-S)

Wondergirl · Jul 22, 2008, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Josh 24:21-22
22 So Joshua said to the people, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen the LORD for yourselves, to serve Him." And they said, "We are witnesses!"
NKJV

Josh 24:14-16
15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
NKJV

Why are you quoting from the OT? Good try at cherry-picking though!

Tj3 · Jul 23, 2008, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Why are you quoting from the OT? Good try at cherry-picking though!

Do you not accept the OT as scripture?

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV

0rphan · Jul 23, 2008, 07:37 AM

Sadley I think it's all about power, trying to force a person to do something that they don't want to, you'll see some form or another of it in all walks of life.

Wondergirl · Jul 23, 2008, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Do you not accept the OT as scripture?

Lolololol of course I do, but you have cherry-picked passages that "prove" your pov much like Southern plantation owners cherry-picked to prove that God approves of slavery. You have just demonstrated that anyone can use the Bible to prove anything they want to. The verses you chose are out of context and have nothing to do with conversion per se.

tawnynkids · Jul 23, 2008, 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

lolololol of course I do, but you have cherry-picked passages that "prove" your pov much like Southern plantation owners cherry-picked to prove that God approves of slavery. You have just demonstrated that anyone can use the Bible to prove anything they want to. The verses you chose are out of context and have nothing to do with conversion per se.

This wasn't for me I know, but I'd like to ask why is it you feel they are out of context?

Tj3 · Jul 23, 2008, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

lolololol of course I do, but you have cherry-picked passages that "prove" your pov much like Southern plantation owners cherry-picked to prove that God approves of slavery. You have just demonstrated that anyone can use the Bible to prove anything they want to. The verses you chose are out of context and have nothing to do with conversion per se.

I chose those references because it is clear that we chose what God it is that we follow. We can choose for the true god or for a false god. There is not just one way that we can choose to go, as you suggested.

If you think that they are out of context, then demonstrate that by going to the context and let's discuss. I trust that you are aware that there is much more in scripture to refute the belief that we have no free choices.

Wondergirl · Jul 23, 2008, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

I chose those references because it is clear that we chose what God it is that we follow. We can choose for the true god or for a false god. There is not just one way that we can choose to go, as you suggested.

If you think that they are out of context, then demonstrate that by going to the context and let's discuss. I trust that you are aware that there is much more in scripture to refute the belief that we have no free choices.

If we claim to have chosen to believe in God by our own power, that is work righteousness.

Yes, we have free will--to do good or to do evil. Even those who have never heard of Jesus Christ have free will and can do good or evil.

Please read the entire passages and consider the context of the verses you quoted.

Tj3 · Jul 23, 2008, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

If we claim to have chosen to believe in God by our own power, that is work righteousness.

That is your definition, but it is not what I see in scripture.

Yes, we have free will--to do good or to do evil. Even those who have never heard of Jesus Christ have free will and can do good or evil.

Please read the entire passages and consider the context of the verses you quoted.

I have. Perhaps you should know that I used to be a member of the Reformed Church. I know what I am talking about, and have studied both sides of the issue.

Wondergirl · Jul 23, 2008, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

That is your definition, but it is not what I see in scripture.

I'm sorry about that.

I have. Perhaps you should know that I used to be a member of the Reformed Church. I know what I am talking about, and have studied both sides of the issue.

And?

arcura · Jul 23, 2008, 08:49 PM

Moonlitwaves,
If we look closely at what the bibles says about God it does tell us that we should loved God for many of His very good, kind, merciful and forgiving attributes.
That and also the fact that he tell us how to live this life with the 10 Commandments and others that Jesus gave us such as "Love one another as I have loved you."
Yes God does tell us of the consequenses of doing evil.
That. I think, is fair to to tell us both sides of the issue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3 · Jul 23, 2008, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

And?

And having studied what scripture says, I have had to reject Calvinism as being as much in error as Arminianism.

Wondergirl · Jul 23, 2008, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

And having studied what scripture says, I have had to reject Calvinism as being as much in error as Arminianism.

Reject all you wish. I believe in neither.

arcura · Jul 23, 2008, 08:58 PM

Wondergirl,
As do I not believe in either of them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Tj3 · Jul 23, 2008, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Reject all you wish. I believe in neither.

Good, but interesting since you were promoting one of the key tenets of Calvinism.

Wondergirl · Jul 23, 2008, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Tj3

Good, but interesting since you were promoting one of the key tenets of Calvinism.

Not so. Calvinism goes much, much further than that.

MoonlitWaves · Jul 24, 2008, 04:34 AM

Originally Posted by arcura

Moonlitwaves,
If we look closely at what the bibles says about God it does tell us that we should loved God for many of His very good, kind, merciful and forgiving attributes.
That and also the fact that he tell us how to live this life with the 10 Commandments and others that Jesus gave us such as "Love one another as I have loved you."
Yes God does tell us of the consequenses of doing evil.
That. I think, is fair to to tell us both sides of the issue.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Absolutely, and I am not saying the understanding of consequences should be omitted.

There have just been so many numerous occasions where people ask if someone is going to hell for some type of sin. I can't help but wonder if these people are taught to be good people and do good things because of fear of the consequences rather than WHY they should be good people. I have spoken to many atheists who turn away from God because of the wrong ideas they have in their head about Him. The first impression that some got of God was cruelty. First impressions are hard to get rid of so guess what that means for those people?

It should be more along the lines of... This is why and how you receive forgiveness for that sin you mentioned... Instead of... That sin will send you to burn for eternity.

Everyone who has posted so far has agreed that attempting to get people to believe in God by using the fear of hell is shallow and it is NOT lasting.

But the truth still remains that it happens all the time and I feel it's just so wrong! We need to let God do the convicting! I don't know about everyone else but God didn't convict me to ask for salvation by threatening me with hell, but rather He convicted me by showing me that I am better than the sin that bound me down. Though I understood hell was the consquence of not choosing God, He didn't use that against me.

Conviction then and even from my sins now does not come from fear of the punishment, but it does come from the knowledge He instills in me that He created me to be better than that, and doing right and always being a good person is the only right and good way to be. When I fall sort of His expectation, that is my conviction!

My point is that's the way it should be and would be if people would let God do the convicting. But it doesn't always happen that way.