[Tj3]

For those, like Choux, who have heard an erroneous version of what Christianity teaches, let me add the following.

Choux believes that if we don't do what we are told, that we go to hell. Well, one way to be saved is to never sin, but so far no one other than Jesus has ever lived on earth who has managed to go through life in the flesh and not sin:

Rom 3:23-24
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
NKJV

Heb 4:15-16
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
NKJV

So, if Choux was right, then there would be no hope - we would ALL be on our way to hell. But God provided another way by coming to earth as a man, manifest in the flesh. And why did He come?

John 3:17-18
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
NKJV

Note: God did not choose to condemn anyone - it is each person's decision to choose life through receive Jesus' sacrifice on the cross; or choosing death by choosing to spend eternity in hell.

Those who receive the sacrifice that He made on the cross are no longer under the law, as Choux suggests. The purpose of the law is not to condemn us, as she suggests, but rather to point us to Christ:

Gal 3:19-25
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

When we receive Christ, we are no longer under the law because it is His righteousness that is imputed to us:

Rom 4:22-25
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

We see God's love when Jesus was on the cross, pounding nails into the hands of God in the flesh, and rather than condemning them to hell, what does Jesus (who is God) say about these evil me?

Luke 23:33-34
34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."
NKJV

That is not the god that Choux describes, but this is the one true loving God who cares for each one of us and who desires that each one of us receive the sacrifice on the cross so that we might spend eternity with Him in heaven.

[arcura]

Choux,
Whether you believe it or not people do bad things and always have.
The foundation of Christianity is that God is merciful and offers forgiveness.
People like to and need to be forgiven otherwise the guilt of what they have done often eats them up and ruins their lives.
We KNOW that very often what we have done get punished in some way.
What goes around comes around.
I happens all the time.
If a person is forgiven a person can have a happy life, otherwise often not.
That is they way things are,
It is called the law of balances.
Whether a person believes it or not it does happen.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Alty]

You can't expect for someone who doesn't believe in God to get what it's about. Just like we as people who believe in God don't understand atheists beliefs. It's oil and water, they don't mix.

What I don't understand is this, why can't people just let others have their beliefs? Why do we have to argue back and forth? This is ridiculous, and it's all over this site. Arguing, name calling, the bible says this, I say that, God does this, I do that. Where is it getting us? No where, that's where.

Argue if you want, for those who believe, well, believe, for those who don't, don't, we all have the right to believe what we want. Quote scripture, the atheists will come up with something else to dispute it, tell them your beliefs, they'll come up with a way to dispute that. It's a lose, lose situation, no winning, just fighting. Why can't we just let it be already and agree to disagree?

Enough already, I'm sticking with my dads advice on this one. Don't ever discuss politics or religion if you want to avoid a fight.

To the rest of you, good luck with your losing battle.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Right!
Many people refuse to accept that for human beings doing bad this is a fact of life.
Also that often being punished for that is also a fact of this life.
Choux says that she does not believe in a spiritual "after this life".
But what does happen during this one strongly points to that fact that there IS a next life where what we do now is dealt with then.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[arcura]

Altenweg,
I for one do let people believe as they want to.
But in a discussion such as this those different beliefs come to the fore and are expressed by the believers on how they believe.
It is how we get to know each other.
I have some atheist friends whom I like and they are welcome to believe as they wish. It does not change my liking of them.
They have made their choice as I have mine, and discussing it from time to time seems to be a normal thing to have happen.
That should NOT cause ill feeling or name calling or bigotry.
If it does it is time to stop.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Alty]

Fred, go around the site, see all the arguments that are going on in the religious discussion board. The same offenders, time and time again, saying the same stuff, giving the same arguments, getting mad, name calling, picking apart arguments, beliefs, and each other.

I agree with you, believe what you want, and if you can have a mature rational discussion about your differing beliefs, then great, go for it, but I've never seen a mature rational discussion on religion on this site, not once, it's war and they will fight to the death any way they can.

I'm just so tired of it. Why do some people just have to be right, no matter what, for something they cannot with 100% certainty prove or disprove. It's belief, and it's everyone's right to believe or not. Stop fighting about it, it gets you no where, that's what I think.

I know it won't stop, some people just love to fight, love to belittle others, put down their beliefs and faith for their own entertainment. Until those people stop and realize that all they are doing is causing dissention, there will continue to be fights about religion. Personally, I'm done. I'll stick to the sexuality boards and the discussion boards, they're safe. :)

Good luck everyone, no matter what you believe, or whether you believe, I believe in your right to believe it. Just remember, you beliefs are yours, not everyone else's, so show some respect, okay?

[thisnthatshoppe]

When the bible speaks of hell or sheol, it is actually a place where garbage was burned and dead were sometimes buried. Hell is not a real place of toture for sinners. Christianity has lost it's roots in Christ and has used fear of damnation for centuries. This can not be reconciled with the blood of Christ or an all loving God. Just allow yourself to believe that God loves you as you are, flaws and all, and that Christ's blood was shed for all sinners. We are renewed once we believe that. Ignore all the damnation stuff. It isn't real.

[arcura]

Altenweg,
I'm sorry to see you go.
I do respect you and all others here.
I do believe that belittling others is wrong and counterproductive.
It is wasteful to boot.
Please reconsider ans sick around.
It is voices like yours on that subject that NEED to be heard often.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

When the bible speaks of hell or sheol, it is actually a place where garbage was burned and dead were sometimes buried. Hell is not a real place of toture for sinners. Christianity has lost it's roots in Christ and has used fear of damnation for centuries. This can not be reconciled with the blood of Christ or an all loving God. Just allow yourself to believe that God loves you as you are, flaws and all, and that Christ's blood was shed for all sinners. We are renewed once we believe that. Ignore all the damnation stuff. It isn't real.

Hell is a real place and will be tossed into the Lake of Fire which is eternal.

Rev 14:10-11
E shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
NKJV

They were created as a place of punishment for Satan and the demons, but Satan managed to convince men to follow him into hell.

[Wondergirl]

Galveston1 disagrees: Job 1:12 clearly says that God ALLOWED Satan to test Job. Satan was happy to do so!

I didn't say anything about who allowed whom to do what. Please reread what I wrote.

Apparently you too have missed the point that the Book of Job makes.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
Clearly God allowed Satan to test Job and Job passed the test.
From the New Jerusalem Version.
Job 1: 6. One day when the sons of God came to attend on Yahweh, among them came Satan.
7. So Yahweh said to Satan, "Where have you been?" "Prowling about on earth," he answered, "roaming around there."
8. So Yahweh asked him, "Did you pay any attention to my servant Job? There is no one like him on the earth: a sound and honest man who fears God and shuns evil."
9. `Yes," Satan said, "but Job is not God-fearing for nothing, is he?
10. Have you not put a wall round him and his house and all his domain? You have blessed all he undertakes, and his flocks throng the countryside.
11. But stretch out your hand and lay a finger on his possessions: then, I warrant you, he will curse you to your face."
12. `Very well," Yahweh said to Satan, "all he has is in your power. But keep your hands off his person." So Satan left the presence of Yahweh.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl,
Clearly God allowed Satan to test Job and Job passed the test.

Yes, dear Fred. I agree. That wasn't what I was saying.

What's the point of including the Book of Job in the canon?

[simoneaugie]

If someone or something gives me free will to live the life I choose, that doesn't seem very strict. If we are to believe that Job only lived that one life, then yes, God is capricious and cruel. The story was an example of faith, Job's faith, not God's cruelty.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
I and many others think that it is a marvelous ancient poem which presents an extraordinarily good story on suffering through great loss, challenges and trials to be eventually successful in achieving blessing and redemption from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[DrJ]

I've often wondered about this...

What if, through the Bible, God taught us that to love Him would ultimately end with eternal damnation to Hell. However, we are to love Him anyway... a true test the love for our Creator.

Those that loved Him would have to suffer and burn in Hell for Eternity... those that didn't, would dine in Heaven for the rest of the ages.

How many of those who call themselves Christians would still Love their God?

[arcura]

DrJizzle,
That is a good question but it is unfounded.
The bible is the basis of our information about God.
In it we find much more that God ks loving, forgiving, and merciful much more than a being who wants to punish people.
It is far more easy to love a God like that than the sort that you post mentions.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[ordinaryguy]

The bible is the basis of our information about God.

Pity the poor benighted folks who had the misfortune to be born before writing was invented. Any god who depends on written language to reveal himself is pretty limited it seems to me.

[Wondergirl]

Pity the poor benighted folks who had the misfortune to be born before writing was invented. Any god who depends on written language to reveal himself is pretty limited it seems to me.

Au contraire! God gave each person a conscience.

[Tj3]

Pity the poor benighted folks who had the misfortune to be born before writing was invented. Any god who depends on written language to reveal himself is pretty limited it seems to me.

Rom 1:18-22
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
NKJV

[ordinaryguy]

Au contraire! God gave each person a conscience.

My point exactly. Direct personal knowledge is the primary source. Placing the Bible above it is idolatry.