[JimGunther]

Yeah, George_1950 I always liked Ike! What angers me so much about this whole Iraq thing as it exists today is that these terrorists want the U.S. out so they can take over.

But they don't seem to grasp the concept that, once the killing stops, the Americans will leave. So all they have to do is lay low for awhile until we leave, then jump up and do what they want-you know once we leave we won't be back. But they love killing so much their common sense is clouded and is defeating their goal of domination of the country. They keep killing, so we stay!

[George_1950]

But they don't seem to grasp the concept that, once the killing stops, the Americans will leave. So all they have to do is lay low for awhile until we leave, then jump up and do what they want-you know once we leave we won't be back. But they love killing so much their common sense is clouded and is defeating their goal of domination of the country. They keep killing, so we stay!

Exactly! We would have been practically out of there by now by now if the insurgency hadn't begun.

[tomder55]

Jim I honor your son's service.
What your son recounts was probably true last year . However the Iraqi forces have improved greatly since the time they were retreating in the face of the enemy. They were the point of the spear in Sadr City ;in Basara ,and now in Mosul. My cousin is a Lt. Col.at Camp Victory and we keep in touch . He has kept me informed throughout the conflict.

[JimGunther]

I certainly hope they have improved, they certainly need to move quickly in the direction of running their own country. They should have the fortitude to step up to the plate and deal with their own problems. Unlike Vietnam, they are not facing massive forces backed by the Communist world.

My son is currently in a school in Arizona where he is learning to operate the Shadow, an unmanned aerial vehicle. He will complete the school in September and expects to go back to Iraq if the situation has not changed by then.

[tomder55]

Until the surge they did not know what horse to bet on ;so many of them were fence sitters. I hope your son does not need to go back. Certainly there are better places where his talents can be used. I'd like the Shadow patrolling the border myself.

[JimGunther]

For sure fence sitting is a problem in situations like that and as the winning side wins more and more, it is only logical that more people will hop of the fence and go with the side that has the most success.

However it is obvious to me that the people over there need to get their act together and unite behind their own country instead of letting the tribal rivalries destroy them, just as it did when the Crusaders first pushed into the Holy Land. Until a leader came along like Saladin, they couldn't unite and defeat the Crusaders. They need to remember this lesson and apply it to the current situation.

[tomder55]

Unlike Vietnam, they are not facing massive forces backed by the Communist world.

True but the "insurgency" was assisted by the Iranian regional hegemony wannabees and sanctuaries and supply and infiltration routes from and through Syria's "ratline" had to be dealt with .

However it is obvious to me that the people over there need to get their act together and unite behind their own country instead of letting the tribal rivalries destroy them

I fully agree .
You may find this article in the WSJ by the Kagans and Jack Kean interesting :
The New Reality in Iraq - WSJ.com

[JimGunther]

Fur Sure! There are other elements that complicate the situation but I don't feel that the threats that face the creation of a free united Iraq are nearly as great as they were in attempting to create a free South Vietnam.

[excon]

Hello again:

I remember Vietnam. We went in because of the "domino effect". If we LOST, the entire region would fall to the commies...

Well, we left (you say LOST), and the domino effect didn't happen. Gosh, somebody was wrong, weren't they??

So, when we leave Iraq (you'll say LOSE), nothing is going to happen, is it? Could they be wrong again?? I think they could be.

excon

[tomder55]

Losing Vietnam;Cambodia ;Laos with the subsequent losses of millions of civilians purged after the war was a good vindication of the domino theory to me. Thailand would have too,if not for the Sino-Soviet split and the Thai government striking a deal with China in the wake of Nixon's trip to Beijing.Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia and the Philippines benefitted from the rear-guard action that our being there provided.

Edit forgot to add Burma (Myanmar) to the list of dominos that fell

[JimGunther]

Don't forget that we also went into Vietnam because we knew what happens to people who live under Communism and their policies such as "We will bury you." Its an old story and goes all the way back to the end of WWII when the Soviets started pulling stuff like the attempted starvation of Berliners and the captivity of those trapped behind the "Iron Curtain."

As with any great historical event, there is usually more than one reason for its occurrence and I don't think its fair to claim that the one you don't like is the only one that existed.

excon, I never said we lost in Vietnam unless I used that word in quotes. I never said "lose" when it comes to Iraq as we already have a signed surrender agreement in hand from the government who lost the war there.

[George_1950]

Hello again:

I remember Vietnam. We went in because of the "domino effect". If we LOST, the entire region would fall to the commies....

Well, we left (you say LOST), and the domino effect didn't happen. Gosh, somebody was wrong, weren't they?????
...
excon

More cherry picking, I'm afraid. We had a megalomaniacal president who wanted to be emperor. The foreign policy of the U.S. (rightly, in my view) incorporated the domino theory, but was hijacked and used as cover for a disastrous war party.