[De Maria]

The Scriptures say that the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and that if we don't hear the Church (Matt 18:17) we should be treated as heathen.

Yet some people say we should neglect the Church and listen to Scripture alone?

Why, if doing so is to disobey Scripture?

[Fr_Chuck]

Tradition in the Orthodox Church

Some of the reasons for churches tradition. But Orthodox perspective

[N0help4u]

What Church should we listen to when they teach so many variations?
I am not saying we should not learn from the church but it is no better to believe everything they say.
The Bible also says to study to show yourself approved and not believe everything you hear but test the spirits and the doctrine
I believe it is good to go to church though

The entire Matt 18:17 is

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Mat 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.


Which is referring to someone who has fallen away from the faith rather than the church itself.

[De Maria]

Hi, thanks for the polite response.

What Church should we listen to when they teach so many variations?

For me, it's the Catholic Church.

The reason, because I believe Jesus established one Church:
Matthew 16

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And since I can trace the Catholic Church historically back to the Apostles, I believe It is the one that Jesus built.

I am not saying we should not learn from the church but it is no better to believe everything they say.

Since Scripture says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15), I believe it is what God wants that we should do. We should believe the Chuirch.

The Bible also says to study to show yourself approved and not believe everything you hear but test the spirits and the doctrine
I believe it is good to go to church though

The entire Matt 18:17 is

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that [sheep], than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
Mat 18:15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.


Which is referring to someone who has fallen away from the faith rather than the church itself.

The Church teaches the faith and all who believe in this faith are members of His body, the Church:

Colossians 1

18 And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy:

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

For me I believe the Assemblies of God church is closer to the right interpretation of the Bible.

[George_1950]

Hi, thanks for the polite response.
For me, its the Catholic Church.

Where does Scripture say that priests shall not marry? Don't you get a bit of concern that things are read into Scripture?

[Fr_Chuck]

The rule on the priests not to marry is not part of the doctrine, it is merely a church rule. And some priests do and can marry, There are other Rites besides the Roman Rite that allow married priests and even in the Roman Rite, pastors from the Orthodox Church, Lutheran Church, Anglican Church and independent Catholic groups have all went into the Catholic Church as married priests, we have had one of our bishops in years past before vatican 2 go back as a married Bishop. So the rule is not 100 percent only for new priests coming though for new ordinations.

It is merely a rule not part of the church doctrine.

[De Maria]

Where does Scripture say that priests shall not marry?

I don't think it says that. The "discipline" which the Church imposes on those who want to be priests comes from Paul's admonition:

1 Corinthians 7 32 But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. 33 But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. 34 And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

Don't you get a bit of concern that things are read into Scripture?

No. But if you give me a for instance, we can look at it together.

As for me, I believe the idea of Sola Scriptura is read into Scripture. No where in Scripture does Scripture say that Scripture alone contains the Word of God. In fact Scripture admonishes us to keep the traditions of word and epistle. Which we interpret to mean of word and Scripture.

2 Thessalonians 2 14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

And Scripture also tells us that the Word of God is passed on by oral teaching.

1 Thessalonians 2 13 Therefore, we also give thanks to God without ceasing: because, that when you had received of us the word of the hearing of God, you received it not as the word of men, but (as it is indeed) the word of God, who worketh in you that have believed.

So, based on Scripture, I see no basis for a doctrine known as Scripture alone or Sola Scriptura.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

No. But if you give me a for instance, we can look at it together.

No where in Scripture does Scripture say that Scripture alone contains the Word of God. In fact Scripture admonishes us to keep the traditions of word and epistle. Which we interpret to mean of word and Scripture.

De Maria

Okay lets take that for a 'for instance'

The Bible says do not add to the word. For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

It also says

"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? [Y]e made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites."
Matthew 15:3, 6, 7

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...

And he said unto them, Full well YE REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, THAT YE MAY KEEP YOUR OWN TRADITION.

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mark 7:5-9, 13

We are told in the New Testament to study the word and RIGHTLY divide it. That means don't be misinterpreting! Tell the truth about the Bible, not lies:

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

[De Maria]

okay lets take that for a 'for instance'

Ok.

The Bible says do not add to the word.

Do you mean that you believe the Church has added to the Word of God? Please show me where?

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

As I understand it, this admonition is against adding any words to the book of Revelation. But even if it were an admonition against adding to the entire Bible, which word did the Catholic Church add to the Bible?

As I have heard, Luther added the word "alone" behind the word "faith" in Romans 3:28. But I've never heard that the Catholic Church added any words.

So, could you be more specific.

It also says

"Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? [Y]e made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites."
Matthew 15:3, 6, 7

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...

And he said unto them, Full well YE REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, THAT YE MAY KEEP YOUR OWN TRADITION.

The Catholic Church keeps all the Commandments and teaches us to keep them.

And Scripture tells us to keep the traditions by word and epistle(2 Thess 2:14).

So, the Catholic Church teaches us to keep the Commandments.
And to keep the traditions of God.
And to kieep the tradition of Scripture.

But to reject the traditions of men. For instance, Sola Scriptura. We believe it is a tradition of men who want to justify their denial of the Church which Scripture calls the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).

Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mark 7:5-9, 13

We are told in the New Testament to study the word and RIGHTLY divide it. That means don't be misinterpreting! Tell the truth about the Bible, not lies:

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

But what does it mean to divide the Word rightly. Did you know that the Word of God has a Spiritual component? Do you take this Spiritual component into account when you interpret Scripture?

2 Corinthians 3 6 Who also hath made us fit ministers of the new testament, not in the letter, but in the spirit. For the letter killeth, but the spirit quickeneth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

The spiritual component IS the MAIN thing I take into consideration.

Traditions of man

The celibacy of the priesthood was decreed by Pope Hildebrand, Boniface VII

Jesus imposed no such rule, nor did any of the apostles. On the contrary, St. Peter was a married man, and St. Paul says that bishops were to have wife and children. (1st Timothy 3:2,5, and 12; Matthew 8:14-15).

Fish Friday -Fasting on Fridays and during Lent were imposed
Imposed by popes said to be interested in the commerce of fish. Some authorities say, began in the year 700. This is against the plain teaching of the Bible. (Matthew 15:10; 1st Corinthians 10:25; 1st Timothy 4:1-3).

Praying to Mary -The Bible teaches that we pray to God alone. In the primitive church never were prayers directed to Mary, or to dead saints. This practice began in the Roman Church
(Matthew 11:28; Luke 1:46; Acts 10:25-26; 14:14-18)

Jesus did not appoint Peter to the headship of the apostles and forbade any such notion. (Luke 22:24-26; Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18; 1st Corinthians 3:11).
Nor is there any mention in Scripture, nor in history, that Peter ever was in Rome, much less that he was pope there for 25 years; Clement, 3rd bishop of Rome, remarks that "there is no real 1st century evidence that Peter ever was in Rome."

Canonization of dead saints, first by Pope John XV
Every believer and follower of Christ is called saint in the Bible. (Read Romans 1:7; 1st Colossians 1:2).

Confession of sin to the priest at least once a year was instituted by Pope Innocent III. in the Lateran Council
The Bible commands us to confess our sins direct to God. (Psalm 51:1-10; Luke 7:48; 15:21; 1st John 1:8-9).
Confessing to the one you offended and refers to asking forgiveness and showing repentance. Not meant for confessing to Priest.

The doctrine of Purgatory was proclaimed as a dogma of faith by Council of Florence
There is not one word in the Bible that would teach the purgatory of priests. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sins. (1st John 1:7-9; 2:1-2; John 5:24; Romans 8:1).

The Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary was proclaimed by Pope Pius IX
The Bible states that all men, with the sole exception of Christ, are sinners. Mary herself had need of a Savior. (Romans 3:23; 5:12; Psalm 51:5; Luke 1:30,46,47).

[arcura]

No help 4 you,
You quoted from the book of revelation and THAT is the book Paul referred to, NOT the bible itself which was promulgated centuries later.
Many of the apostles wrote letters and information that they were taught by Jesus or by some of the original twelve which us not in today's bible.
Those teachings and information that was written is called oral tradition which the bibke tells us that we should follow.
Yes, one of the apostles in the bible says to falllow "the traditions I have taught you".
The bible its self is a tradition; written Scripture tradition.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[RickJ]

Tis not my own horn but I'll toot it anyway. Here's a bit I wrote about Sola Scriptura elsewhere:

About Sola Scriptura (the "Bible Alone")

Sola Scriptura is the idea that the Bible is sufficient of itself to be the only source of Christian doctrine.

If we believe in this doctrine, then we should find it in the Bible, right?

In fact, we do not.

The scripture passage so often cited by proponents of Sola Scriptura is 2 Timothy 3: 15-17, however you shall see that Paul teaches nothing of the sort:

2 Timothy 3: 15-17:
"...from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Here there is not even the slightest implication that Scripture is the sole source of doctrine. Indeed, it affirms the value of Scripture - and that it is from God (which Catholics are taught), however nothing implies that it is all we need. To say that Scripture is "useful" is one thing, but to say it is the only writing that ought to be followed is another altogether.

Not only is the idea of Sola Scriptura not found in Scripture, itself, the New Testament, in fact, teaches against it:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
" So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

1 Corinthians 11:2
"I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you."

2 Timothy 1:13-14
"What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us."

2 Timothy 2:1-2
"You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others."

The Bible is indeed the Word of God and without error, but neither Christ nor the Bible teach such an idea as Sola Scriptura.

Catholic Truths: Ecumenical Apologetics. Sola Scriptura

[sndbay]

The Scriptures say that the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and that if we don't hear the Church (Matt 18:17) we should be treated as heathen.

In my opinion you can not ask this question... The church or temple would be Christ, and the ground truth again is Christ. So if you don't hear Christ the foundation of church we should be treated as heathen.. No question about that..

Yet some people say we should neglect the Church and listen to Scripture alone?

Why, if doing so is to disobey Scripture?

Has the church become a structure? Has the Sabbath become a day? Nay.. it should not be so..

Follow scripture is walking with Christ.. He is our Sabbath.. He is our Church.. He is the Word in scripture.

~In Chirst

[N0help4u]

In my opinion you can not ask this question... The church or temple would be Christ, and the ground truth again is Christ. So if you don't hear Christ the foundation of church we should be treated as heathen.. No question about that..

Yep like I said the Matt 17 is about falling away from the faith not the church (building).

[arcura]

RickJ,
Exceptionally well said.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[N0help4u]

Yes, one of the apostles in the bible says to falllow "the traditions I have taught you".
The bible its self is a tradition; written Scripture tradition.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I believe the differentiation is between Scriptural traditions and man's traditions
So we can argue throughout time about tradition but what IS backed up by scripture?
The Bible DOES warn against man made tradition taught as truth.

[arcura]

NoHelp4You,
Which man's tradition is the problem. Jesus and his apostles were men.
It is their tradition that I rely on, not that of others who want to discard their traditional teachings as mentioned in the bible and in later writings.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[N0help4u]

So whose to say what traditions are acceptable and what ones are not if a church can just make traditions and doctrines. Any religion or cult should be able to make up traditions because the apostles were men and taught tradition?

I already replied above with a list.

[sndbay]

Should we say man made church traditions and teaching. I follow in Christ Word, and in Christ teaching.

In Acts Peter told who they followed when they were brought before the council and the high priest.
KJV Acts 5:27-29 And when they had brought them, they set [them] before the council: and the high priest asked them, 28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? And, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.29 Then Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.