[Tj3]

oh my brain is beginning to hurt!!!

Consuming fire is not literal it is figurative and what does it have to do with angels???

I sympathize. De Maria does seem to go off on unrelated tangents.

[De Maria]

Actually, no. I mentioned the heresy of the Mormon teaching of heaven being "everlasting burnings" in response to one of saintjoan's messages. You then brought up the mention of God as a consuming fire, which refers to how He destroys those who are enemies of Him.

And yet you seem to think that is where you are going.

I see. When I bring up the Seraphim, I'm going off topic.

When you bring up Mormon teaching, you don't go off topic.

Hmmm? Interesting sense of justice.

[Tj3]

I see. When I bring up the Seraphim, I'm going off topic.

When you bring up Mormon teaching, you don't go off topic.

Hmmm? Interesting sense of justice.

The difference is that I was simply indicating that the Roman catholic teaching quoted by saintjoan sounded like the Mormon teaching that heaven was like hell (everlasting burnings).

That has nothing to do with angels.

[De Maria]

So if it is burning in hell so we want to avoid that then what is the difference of being in heaven to 'escape' the fire? We haven't escaped fire then have we?

What MAKES you think consuming fire is literal instead of figurative?

Simple.

When the fire appeared in the bush, it was not consumed. When the tongues of fire rested on the Apostles they were not burned.

Obviously, putting on the armor of Christ protects us from being burned by the Consuming Fire.

But what makes you think that the Consuming Fire is figurative? Does Scripture say that God is LIKE a consuming fire? Or does it say that God IS a Consuming Fire?

Deuteronomy 4 24 Because the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

Simple.

When the fire appeared in the bush, it was not consumed. When the tongues of fire rested on the Apostles they were not burned.

Obviously, putting on the armor of Christ protects us from being burned by the Consuming Fire.

But what makes you think that the Consuming Fire is figurative? Does Scripture say that God is LIKE a consuming fire? Or does it say that God IS a Consuming Fire?

Deuteronomy 4 24 Because the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Hebrews 12 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Sincerely,

De Maria

DM,

You said that this is the fire in heaven that you will be in - everlasting burnings and yet scripture speaks of the "Consuming Fire" as indicative of how God destroys His enemies.

Deut 9:3
3 "Therefore understand today that the LORD your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them out and destroy them quickly, as the LORD has said to you.
NKJV

Are you really claiming that this is the everlasting fire that you will be in after death?

[N0help4u]

But what makes you think that the Consuming Fire is figurative? Does Scripture say that God is LIKE a consuming fire? Or does it say that God IS a Consuming Fire?

So when the Bible says JESUS is the lamb of God Jesus is literally a Lamb because it does not say Jesus is LIKE a lamb?

[N0help4u]

So if it is burning in hell so we want to avoid that then what is the difference of being in heaven to 'escape' the fire? We haven't escaped fire then have we?

What MAKES you think consuming fire is literal instead of figurative?

saintjoan agrees: The fundamentalists would quote 2 Peter 2:20


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

? I don't see how the fundamentalists would compare 1 Peter 2:20 to the after life.
I can see how the Catholics would though.

[arcura]

De Maria,
Yes, you are right again.
God is our judge. We are not our own judge on anything divine including who goes to heaven.
For someone to claim that their salvation is sure is an attempt to take final judgment away from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

De Maria,
Yes, you are right again.
God is our judge. We are not our own judge on anything divine including who goes to heaven.
For someone to claim that their salvation is sure is an attempt to take final judgment away from God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

So, it appears that what you are saying is that even if God tells us that we have assurance, you are saying that God does not have that right.

1 Thess 1:4-5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

Interesting argument, but it appears to show a low view of God.

[arcura]

Tj3,
Not at all.
I believe what the bible says.
That God IS the final judge.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
Not at all.
I believe what the bible says.
That God IS the final judge.

Then why do you deny what the Bible says - that gospel comes with assurance of salvation.

1 Thess 1:4-5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

God is the final judge and this is God's judgment. You say you believe it, and then you deny it.

[arcura]

Tj3,
No matter how you twist it, Tom Smith, the bible indicates that God Is the final judge. Only He will decide who goes where, Heaven, Purgatory, or hell.
Accept it and you will be far better off with the truth of the matter.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
No matter how you twist it, Tom Smith, the bible indicates that God Is the final judge. Only He will decide who goes where, Heaven, Purgatory, or hell.
Accept it and you will be far better off with the truth of the matter.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

I accept it. You seem to say that you when he makes his call, you don't accept it. Your approach is like saying "God can be God, but if I don't like what he say, I won't acknowledge it".

Once again, here is God's judgment as to whether we have assurance of salvation:

1 Thess 1:4-5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

I notice that you refuse to acknowledge this verse.

[mountain_man]

Fred,

I accept it. You seem to say that you when he makes his call, you don't accept it. Your approach is like saying "God can be God, but if I don't like what he say, I won't acknowledge it".

Once again, here is God's judgment as to whether we have assurance of salvation:

1 Thess 1:4-5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

I notice that you refuse to acknowledge this verse.

I think you are trying to shove a passage down Fred's throat that is only partially relevant. God is our final judge; can that be disputed? BUT we have a assurance of salvation if we KNOW and produce fruits of what Jesus and the Bible teaches; we can be confident with where we will spend eternity BUT God still remains the final judge of everyone! Would you not agree TJ3

[tsila1777]

2 Peter 1


1SIMON PETER, a servant and apostle (special messenger) of Jesus Christ, to those who have received (obtained an equal privilege of) like precious faith with ourselves in and through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2May grace (God's favor) and peace (which is [a]perfect well-being, all necessary good, all spiritual prosperity, and [b]freedom from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts) be multiplied to you in [the full, personal, [c]precise, and correct] knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
3For His divine power has bestowed upon us all things that [are requisite and suited] to life and godliness, through the [[d]full, personal] knowledge of Him Who called us by and to His own glory and excellence (virtue).
4By means of these He has bestowed on us His precious and exceedingly great promises, so that through them you may escape [by flight] from the moral decay (rottenness and corruption) that is in the world because of covetousness (lust and greed), and become sharers (partakers) of the divine nature.
5For this very reason, [e]adding your diligence [to the divine promises], employ every effort in [f]exercising your faith to develop virtue (excellence, resolution, Christian energy), and in [exercising] virtue [develop] knowledge (intelligence),
6And in [exercising] knowledge [develop] self-control, and in [exercising] self-control [develop] steadfastness (patience, endurance), and in [exercising] steadfastness [develop] godliness (piety),
7And in [exercising] godliness [develop] brotherly affection, and in [exercising] brotherly affection [develop] Christian love.
8For as these qualities are yours and increasingly abound in you, they will keep [you] from being idle or unfruitful unto the [[g]full personal] knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
9For whoever lacks these qualities is blind, [[h]spiritually] shortsighted, [i]seeing only what is near to him, and has become oblivious [to the fact] that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10Because of this, brethren, be all the more solicitous and eager to make sure (to ratify, to strengthen, to make steadfast) your calling and election; for if you do this, you will never stumble or fall.
11Thus there will be richly and abundantly provided for you entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

[Tj3]

I think you are trying to shove a passage down Fred's throat that is only partially relevant. God is our final judge; can that be disputed? BUT we have a assurance of salvation if we KNOW and produce fruits of what Jesus and the Bible teaches; we can be confident with where we will spend eternity BUT God still remains the final judge of everyone! Would you not agree TJ3

God is the judge and scripture not only says that we have assurance, but it say that God will judge based upon whether we have justification through Jesus. He says that if we have received Jesus as Saviour then we have the absolute assurance of salvation.

Fred says that we don't know. I disagree.

[mountain_man]

God is the judge and scripture not only says that we have assurance, but it say that God will judge based upon whether we have justification through Jesus. He says that if we have received Jesus as Saviour then we have the absolute assurance of salvation.

Fred says that we don't know. I disagree.

By you saying we "have the absolute assurance of salvation" assumes that God doesn't even need to be involved in the final judgement when we die. What about the Bible relaying that there are certain people that will claim to heal, prophesy in Jesus name, and cast out demons but in the end He will "I have never known you"

I don't think we need to do good works in order to be saved, I believe that salvation is a gift that we except and through that gift are saved BUT we must live a life congurant with that belief we must show the fruits of personally knowing Jesus and perserve to win the race and grow to be more like Jesus each day. In my opinion we can't just accept Jesus as saviour and then continuing living as we have because of an "absolute assurance of salvation"

Am I understanding your position correctly?

[Tj3]

By you saying we "have the absolute assurance of salvation" assumes that God doesn't even need to be involved in the final judgement when we die.

How can one be saved if God has not been involved?

What about the Bible relaying that there are certain people that will claim to heal, prophesy in Jesus name, and cast out demons but in the end He will "I have never known you"

Note that God said that He never knew them (i.e. never saved).

In my opinion we can't just accept Jesus as saviour and then continuing living as we have because of an "absolute assurance of salvation'

No one that I saw has said that and I most certainly never said it, suggested it, nor do I believe it. In fact, if you have been reading my posts, I explained that unless one exhibits faithfulness, we have reason to question their faith.

This is, however, much different than saying that we have no assurance, because God made promises in scripture and assurance does not come with those promises (as scriptures says it does), then that is in effect a denial of God's word and God's faithfulness.

[arcura]

mountain_man,
I agree with you.
God was, is and will be the final judge of every one of us.
That is why the bibles that we must work out out salvation with fear and trembling and HOPE for our salvation.
Romans 12: 24. In hope, we already have salvation; in hope, not visibly present, or we should not be hoping, nobody goes on hoping for something which is already visible.
25. But having this hope for what we cannot yet see, we are able to wait for it with persevering confidence.
Roams 12: 11. In the service of the Lord, work not halfheartedly but with conscientiousness and an eager spirit.
12. Be joyful in hope, persevere in hardship; keep praying regularly;
13. Share with any of God's holy people who are in need; look for opportunities to be hospitable.
Gal 5: 5. We are led by the Spirit to wait in the confident hope of saving justice through faith,
Col 1: 23. As long as you persevere and stand firm on the solid base of the faith, never letting yourselves drift away from the hope promised by the gospel, which you have heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become the servant.
1 Thes 5: 8. but we belong to the day and we should be sober; let us put on faith and love for a breastplate, and the hope of salvation for a helmet.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

mountain_man,
I agree with you.
God was, is and will be the final judge of each and every one of us.

And when God judges those who are saved, He does not see what we have done, but rather sees the righteousness of Him who has saved us:

Rom 4:21-25
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness." 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
NKJV

I have His righteousness imputed to me, and I am justified through His sacrifice on the cross. What does God say about that?

John 6:37-38
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
NKJV

And it is because of that we can, as scripture tells us, have absolute assurance of salvation:

1 Thess 1:5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake
NKJV

I trust God. I trust God's gospel. I trust the promises of God. I trust that the sacrifice on the cross is sufficient.

Those who have received the Holy Spirit and have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them should have no doubt of salvation and should have absolute assurance in the faithfulness of God and His promises. We need not fear that His judgment will turn against us if we have received the true gospel.