[arcura]

Tj3,
I am saying that IF for some reason a person REFUSES to forgive someone of sin or sins against that person then that person is NOT forgiven just as Jesus said.
Fred.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
I am saying that IF for some reason a person REFUSES to forgive someone of sin or sins against that person then that person is NOT forgiven just as Jesus said.
Fred.

Fred,

That does not answer the question. What I asked was, and I quote:

------------------------
Fred,

You keep telling us that you can stop being saved without knowing it, but I have yet to see a verse that says that. You have shown verses that say that we can reject our salvation, and I agree that is possible, but where are the references that show is it possible to stop being saved without knowing it, or accidentally?
------------------------

[sndbay]

Tom as you know your sins MUST be forgiven if you are to go into heaven.
As stated before if for some reason a person who was saved refuses to forgive someone who has sinned against him/her then his/her sin will not be forgiven and salvation is lost.
It is as simple as that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, if this person does not forgive, and is not of a loving nature, this person is not born of the spirit.

They are born of the flesh. Only "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).

Roman 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

No one can find salvation, salvation is from God, salvation is Christ... If we Answer the call of salvation by confessed (one Faith) in Christ Jesus, and (one Baptism)of Holy Spirit, knowing there is (One Lord) who is One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Then: Whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever" (Eccl. 3:14)


"In Adam all sin and die" (1 Cor. 15:22). "The mind of the flesh is death" (Rom. 8:6). Being connected with the body, it is called "this body of death" (Rom. 7:24).

Christ ended that death, by creating us new in HIS image.(Romans 6:4) If we walk in the light (as Christ is the light) we have fellowship in HIM (1 John 1:7)

[sndbay]

Unless you think that we must all go to Lebanon to be baptized, this clearly has nothing to do with baptism.

The living waters here is defined as God Himself, not water of baptism.

Once again, it is shown to be God Himself, not the water of baptism.

The living water here comes out of the believer and it is specifically spoken of as being the Holy Spirit. Once again, the living water is God.

So it is clear that the "living water" is God. To suggest that ordinary water used in a baptismal font is "living water" is a very dangerous teaching indeed, and is not found anywhere in scripture.

Never is the actually water baptism the work of man, we are not baptized by men. We are baptized in a saving water by the Holy Spirit, the hand of God. Scripture reference has been given several times... of the likeness, like figure and how it does SAVE

Reality check: One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Roman 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:



Christ begotten of God
Christ called to the cross (set free and forgiven)
The element of that cross is evidence to the idenity of dead, buried, and did raise again.


We are begotten of flesh
We are called to be baptism in water (salvation)
The element of that water in baptism is evidence to the idenity of died, buried, and able to raise as He raised.


1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Not that we suffer on a cross, it was HIS calling, once done... Finished!


But that we suffer in water baptism, it is our calling to salvation... reborn, not of the flesh but of the spirit ... Finished in the hands of God!

[Tj3]

Never is the actually water baptism the work of man, we are not baptized by men.

That is where you are wrong. It is a work of men. Men can baptize with water whether the person is a believer or not. The whole event is a work of man.

Once again, you are going beyond and adding to scripture. Nowhere does scripture says that water baptism is a work of God.

We are baptized in a saving water by the Holy Spirit, the hand of God[/B]. Scripture reference has been given several times... of the likeness, like figure and how it does SAVE

"Likeness" means that baptism is symbolic, something that you are denying. You are saying that it actually saves.

Secondly, the reference is "saving water" is something that you are adding to scripture. Once again, it is not found in scripture.

You are turning around this symbolic act which is a representation of what has happened to the person when he was saved, and making it a requirement for salvation,

So what is it coming down to, is that you believe in a doctrine, the basis of which is outside of scripture. You can believe as you wish, but you cannot say it is scriptural.

Remember there is ONE baptism and we see it in Acts 10:47 where the person received the Holy Spirit BEFORE receiving water baptism.

[sndbay]

That is where you are wrong. It is a work of men. Men can baptize with water whether the person is a believer or not. The whole event is a work of man.

Reality check: Who is power and dominion over all things?
Who can give man delusion ?
Believe as you may, I rest in Christ having power and dominion over all. I believe in the Holy Spirit in Baptism, that does not leave us in the bubble air for flesh in this world, BUT does put us in a world with Christ, not this wolrd of sin. A nourishing bubble like a womb of water where sin can't live, where we are covered in HIS righteousness. Because we living in the spirit, and born of that spirit in likeness to Christ. (1 John 5:6-7 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. )

John 17:13-17 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

The Law of Faith..
One LORD: One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Once again, you are going beyond and adding to scripture. Nowhere does scripture says that water baptism is a work of God.

One Faith... in who Christ Jesus is and HIS power and dominion over all

"Likeness" means that baptism is symbolic, something that you are denying. You are saying that it actually saves.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Secondly, the reference is "saving water" is something that you are adding to scripture. Once again, it is not found in scripture.

You are turning around this symbolic act which is a representation of what has happened to the person when he was saved, and making it a requirement for salvation,

We are begotten of flesh
We are called to be baptism in water (salvation)
The element of that water in baptism is evidence to the idenity of died, buried, and able to raise as He raised.

Deny this if you wish.. persecute me if you wish.. it is the WORD of GOD

So what is it coming down to, is that you believe in a doctrine, the basis of which is outside of scripture. You can believe as you wish, but you cannot say it is scriptural.

I believe in the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT.. I believe in being born of the SPIRIT. .. I believe dominion and power in Christ over this world

Remember there is ONE baptism and we see it in Acts 10:47 where the person received the Holy Spirit BEFORE receiving water baptism.

The Holy Spirit is giving in accordance of measures which is God's Will. The fullness of the Holy Spirit or even the Baptism gift of the HOLY SPIRIT, are measures in accordance to God's Will

[Tj3]

Reality check: Who is power and dominion over all things?
Who can give man delusion ?
Believe as you may, I rest in Christ having power and dominion over all.

Agreed.

I believe in the Holy Spirit in Baptism, that does not leave us in the bubble air for flesh in this world, BUT does put us in a world with Christ, not this wolrd of sin.

I understand that you believe it - but my point is that the belief in water bringing salvation is not scriptural. Over and over again you had to add to what scripture says when trying to make a point. That should be a warning sign.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This is what I mean by you continually repeating something which has been refuted many times. The passage itself shows specifically that baptism is ONLY symbolic, and yet when you quote this, you avoid that part of the passage, effectively taking it out of context.

We are begotten of flesh
We are called to be baptism in water (salvation)
The element of that water in baptism is evidence to the idenity of died, buried, and able to raise as He raised

.

Note that once again you must add to scripture to make your point? Scripture says nowhere that we are "...called to be baptism in water (salvation)", as you claim.

[sndbay]

Scripture says nowhere that we are "...called to be baptism in water (salvation)", as you claim.

We are all called to be spiritually minded. Born of the spirit.. Establish the Law of Faith, it is the Law of God, it is what we are called to answer. We are called to follow Christ steps
(1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps)

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Otherwise: you are in reference of that spoken of in scripture as (Gal 4:9) and should review thr (Gal 4:28)

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

[Tj3]

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

We are all called to be spiritually minded. Born of the spirit.. Establish the Law of Faith, it is the Law of God, it is what we are called to answer.

Okay so far.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Just like those in Acts 10:47 who had received the Holy Spirit before being water baptized.

Otherwise: you are in reference of that spoken of in scripture as (Gal 4:9) and should review thr (Gal 4:28)

My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

You mean like this that speaks of being born according to the Spirit like those in Acts 10:47?

Gal 4:28-29

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
NKJV

[cozyk]

Somebody, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THING. These arguments are reflecting badly on christians and christianity needs all the help it can get. As I posted in another thread, T J had to start another war of words that closed the thread very early and the word he was fighting about did not make a bit of difference in the big picture. Petty, petty, petty...

[Tj3]

Somebody, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THING. These arguments are reflecting badly on christians and christianity needs all the help it can get.

Christianity needs no help. It has survived 2000 years (through all sorts of attacks from various groups, including the inquisition) nicely without the need of your intervention!

As I posted in another thread, T J had to start another war of words that closed the thread very early and the word he was fighting about did not make a bit of difference in the big picture. Petty, petty, petty...

What closes most threads is when someone starts abusive or demeaning remarks or finger pointing against another person (like the comments you posted above)

[cozyk]

Somebody, PLEASE CLOSE THIS THING. These arguments are reflecting badly on christians and christianity needs all the help it can get. As I posted in another thread, T J had to start another war of words that closed the thread very early and the word he was fighting about did not make a bit of difference in the big picture. petty, petty, petty......

Had a feeling you would disagree to this. Didn't take you very long either. Sorry, I still believe all this bickering is petty. And you did do the same thing in that other thread. It's like you just want to argue or something.

[Fr_Chuck]

Lasted a lot longer than I thought it would,

Closed