[arcura]

inthebox,
It appears to me that what Tj3 is doing is twisting Scripture to fit the idea that faith alone saves.
That ignores the very many passages which tell the Christians to do go works, thus working their faith.
Yes, a truly strong faithful person will try to do as Jesus and the apostles tell us regarding doing go works, but the other side of the coin is that not doing works is a dead faith as scripture clearly says.
Doing good works also lays up a treasure in heaven where niether thief breaks on or moth destroys.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

inthebox,
It appears to me that what Tj3 is doing is twisting Scripture to fit the idea that faith alone saves.
That ignores the very many passages which tell the Christians to do go works, thus working their faith.
Yes, a truly strong faithful person will try to do as Jesus and the apostles tell us regarding doing go works, but the other side of the coin is that not doing works is a dead faith as scripture clearly says.
Doing good works also lays up a treasure in heaven where niether theif breaks on or moth destroys.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Rather than attacking the person, why don't you get into the Bible, go to the Greek, and if you feel that I erred then demonstrate that from the word of God.

Attacking a person with accusations of "twisting" because they fail to agree with you is not convincing. If we truly want to hear what God's word has to say, we need to be willing to allow it to speak to us, and not force fit our personal views or those of our denominations on to what scripture says.

Why don't you show us why you believe that the Greek does not say what I indicated? Do you have a lexicon reference to show us?

[inthebox]

I don't mean to start a debate.

I appreciate both Arcura and Tj3's input. Thank you both.
Sorry Mountain Man - good question.
Grace and Peace all,
Gerry

[mountain_man]

Not a problem Inthebox! You became passionate no harm.

I appreciate all the feedback and responses.

We should be clear that this is a much debated topic which very mature Christians still sometimes have to "chew on" for a time.

It is a "chicken or the egg" type debate that leaves a lot of IF's in question.

This question was raised for me out of a book that I am reading (Driven by Eternity, John Bevire). Before the book I believed you could not "forfeit" your salvation BUT now I believe you can. BUT still very interesting takes from all of you.

Stay strong in your faith until the end and have a healthy fear of the Lord that created you and this will not become an issue.

[savedsinner7]

Revelation 3:5
All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine.

Revelation 20:15
And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matthew 7
I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


Yes. Salvation can be lost.

[arcura]

savedsinner7,
Yes. Good post.
You posted some of the many bible teachings on that subject that some people do ignore.
Know-so-salvation is un-biblical and a heresy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

savedsinner7,
Yes. Good post.
You posted some of the many bible teachings on that subject that some people do ignore.
Know-so-salvation is un-biblical and a heresy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

Could you define what you mean by "know-so-salvation"?

I am sure that you are aware that God provides assurance of salvation to those who have receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit:

1 Thess 1:5
5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

Therefore I presume that this is not what you mean. But it is not clear what you do mean by "know-so-salvation". Please clarify.

[arcura]

Tj3,
We have discussed this on other boards so why are you bringing it up again here if not to cause trouble.
God has promised assured salvation (know-so-salvation) IF we do certain things an having faith is but one of them. So the bible says.
That is what I believe; the bible.
And I WILL NOT discuss it further with YOU.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
We have discussed this on other boards so why are you bringing it up again here if not to cause trouble.

Fred,

It seems to me that you raised the point and since the term has not been defined previously, I believe that it is important to do so to avoid mis-understanding. Check your accusations at the door when you come in!

God has promised assured salvation (know-so-salvation)

This sounds like you are saying that you are defining "know-so-salvation" (which you say is a heresy) is the Biblical assurance of salvation. Is that correct? Because if that is what you are saying, I must explicitly disagree that scripture teaches heresy.

This is why I think that we need to be clear on terminology.

IF we do certain things an having faith is but one of them. So the bible says.

I agree that faith does not save - It is believing in Christ that saves.

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
NKJV

I trust that you understanding the differentiation between "believing" and "believing in Christ".

Are you saying that there is something other than believing in Christ that is essential for salvation?

[arcura]

Tj3,
As I said, I will NOT discuss it further with YOU!
You believe as you wish as I will. OK?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Tj3,
As I said, I will NOT discuss it further with YOU!
You believe as you wish as I will. OK?
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

You are always welcome to believe as you wish. But I trust that you are aware that this area is for discussion, and I and others who may or may not agree with you have an equal right to believe as we wish and to provide the scriptural basis for those beliefs.

If you chose not to respond to what I post, that is okay with me and that is your option. But that will not stop me from posting and validating my position.

Tom

[thisnthatshoppe]

No. You can Not lose your salvation. We are made perfect and justified by the blood of Christ. Many Christians say otherwise, but that is because they have either not studied the Bible closely and have listened to what others teach, or just don't fully understand the teachings. The Bible tells us that all we need to do is believe that christ is our saviour. Our human bodies will never be perfect, nor will our carnal actions. God does not expect them to be. It is our spirit that is perfect and that is what he is most interested in. God is not petty nor vindictive as some would have us believe. God loves us as we are.

[Criado]

There is no such thing in the bible as "Onced Saved, Always Saved". In fact, even saved, there is possibility to go back to perdition as stated in Hebrews 10:38-39

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

One perfect example of this is Judas Iscariot who sold Christ for 30 pieces of silver.

[arcura]

Criado,
Excellent passages and example.
The reason I will not discuss his subject farther with Tom Smith (Tj3) is that I have been on boards with him and others like him where it has been shown be me and many others that the bible clearly tells us in may ways and passages that the idea of once "saved always saved" is not in the bible and indeed is a heresy.
Those who think that way can not be convinced with the many bible passages that prove know-so salvation is a very wrong belief.
I an many others are certain the Judas loved and believed Jesus up to a point.
He THOUGHT that with Christ's power he would resist arrest which he could have done or call a leagion of angels to protect Him.
But that would have been a conflict to Christ Jesus' mission.
Judas could not get that through his head so he lost the salvation that he once had.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Criado,
Excellent passages and example.
The reason I will not discuss his subject farther with Tom Smith (Tj3) is that I have been on boards with him and others like him where it has been shown be me and many others that the bible clearly tells us in may ways and passages that the idea of once "saved always saved" is not in the bible and indeed is a heresy.

Fred,

Thank you for a great example of why there are problems in communication on boards like this. We (you and me, though you may imagine others) may have discussed many things, but you have not taken the time to read what I have said. I see it over and over when you mis-represent me. Indeed, though we have had discussions, I do not remember you ever asking me my views on this specific topic. Maybe you just guessed?

Now listen clearly:

I do not believe in once saved always saved.

Is that clear now?

However, I also do not agree that it is a heresy, and I can receive those who disagree with me on OSAS as brothers in Christ, though I do not agree that their position accurately reflects what scripture says. What we do find in scripture is that we can not "lose" our salvation (i.e. John 10:28), but we can reject or turn away from it wilfully (1 Tim 4:1, 1 Tim 6:10, Heb 6:4-6).

Now let's see if you continue to make that mis-representation. Perhaps if you take the time to actually read what I said, and interact respectfully, we can have a dialogue, as I have suggested many times before.

Those who think that way can not be convinced with the many bible passages that prove know-so salvation is a very wrong belief.

This is another problem. You accuse people of believing this, but you consistently refuse to define what you mean. That is a logic fallacy known as a "straw-man"

[De Maria]

As a Christian, do you believe that you are "once saved always saved"

No. Scripture is clear:

Philippians 2 12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

or do you believe there is a way or different ways one can lose their salvation?

Sin.

Galatians 5 21 Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

Very interested to get your feedback.:D

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[arcura]

Tj3,
Thank you for making your belief on that clear.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[mountain_man]

Thanks for the input on the topic I posted. I do believe as most of you that you can turn your back on God's assurance of salvation or reject it. There are many passages in the Bible that support that theology and we should live accordingly with fear and reverence to a God who has offered such a wonderful gift and promises eternal rewards for great faith through the long race.

To Tom and Fred: As brothers in Christ I find it very hard to listen to your bickering regarding this principle and only see a division occurring between you, when you both love and follow the same Saviour. Put aside the small differences and focus on unconditional love and respect for one another.

[Tj3]

To Tom and Fred: As brothers in Christ I find it very hard to listen to your bickering regarding this principle and only see a division occurring between you, when you both love and follow the same Saviour. Put aside the small differences and focus on unconditional love and respect for one another.

Mountain_man, Fred has denied that he follows the same Saviour as I do, and has suggested that by following the Biblical gospel that I am unsaved.

There is no bickering from my side, but I am concerned about Fred. As Fred well knows, I have told him many times that I bear no ill will towards him, and remain hopeful and willing that someday that he will put down the hatchet and accept my offer. I have even offered to take whatever he has against me off line and discuss it with him, but he has rejected each attempt.

Nonetheless, my sincere offer to keep the door open for him will never expire. I remain hopeful that someday he will take me up on it. I do hope that he will be with us in heaven to spend eternity worshiping God.

[0rphan]

As you have all quoted bible and verse very admirably ( I commend you all ) I will just put my simplistic view...

If you turn away from the hand that feeds you, it is very difficult for that hand to open up again, however the option is always there, for the hand to re-open

e,g born again

Blessings