[NeedKarma]

I guess the big question is: why are you so upset all the time? That's not the natural way of being in my view.

[Allheart]

LOL Good question :).

I'm not upset all the time - but there are times that I do get upset and I overcome it far easier with God's love in my heart.

It's just one example of the difference God makes in my life.

[NeedKarma]

Ah I see. I get upset too, like all human beings, but I overcome it on my own.

Here, for you:

[shatteredsoul]

That is an incorrect statement. There is a huge difference between making a claim based on a linguistic and/or logical "positive" and a linguistic and/or logical "negative".
If nobody can provide objective supported evidence for a linguistic and/or logical "positive" , than supporters of that claim should never ask for objective supported evidence for a linguistic and/or logical "negative". That is extremely unfair.

Example :

For the statement : there is life all around the universe all that has to be done is to send probes in all directions into space, which - encountering life - have to return and/or report that back. As soon as you have a couple of such reports, your claim is valid.

However for the statement : there is no life in the universe other than on earth one has to send multi-trillions of trillions of trillions of trillions of probes to each and every planet, planetoid, or any other possible habitat - including gas clouds - in the universe to check the on itself already enormous difficult task to prove that there is no life there. Simply an impossible task to do .

Therefore : the onus to prove the existence of a deity/deities is on the believers. Not on the non-believers to prove the non-existence of a deity/deities.

As stated so many times before : from me you may believe whatever you like. But that does not mean that you are correct with what you believe. So do not try to convince others that your delusions are the "one and only truth" , but support your beliefs with your actions and your deeds.
"Spreading the word" was not meant to be words only, but clearly and mainly by example.

So far your actions are not showing yet that you got to "spreading the word".

:rolleyes:

·

I think you have absolutely no idea what I have written in my posts. You are simply here to argue. I don't know one bit about my "one and ONLY truth" all I spoke about was what I have experienced to be PERSONALLY TRUE FOR ME.. I never tried to convince you of anything, I just shared my view and understanding of my own existence. I have never been the sort to "SPREAD THE WORD" whatever that means, and I have never tried to make people see MY VIEW AS THE ONLY CORRECT ONE..

This isn't my first rodeo speaking on this site about faith or religion, I commented very simply because most of the time no one responds to anything but dramatic insults and attacks. I am not here for that and I NEVER HAVE been.


MY "action" has been to recognize that if I give and receive love, I feel happy and at peace. THAT is all. I have also realized that its "NOT LIFE ALL AROUND THE EARTH OR UNIVERSE"
BUT RATHER:

THE energy within everything that is alive... HOW that happens on any planet has yet to be understood or proved of where it originated from. JUST as "GOD's" existence has yet to be proven or understood.

THE Magnificent MYSTERIES OF THE UNIVERSE ARE THAT FOR A REASON: we aren't equipped to take in all the knowledge that is out there.. yet some people are more connected to the energy and thus grow differently than someone as stunted in their thinking as you are.

Please stop putting me into a category of someone who is any certain LABEL, I am simply me.. I live my life and as I grow older, these are things that I understand to be true FOR MY LIFE.. I don't expect or assume everyone else will agree with it. We are all vastly different human beings, with incredibly intriciate minds but we are all connected as well.

EVERYTHING that is alive is connected, simply by the energy it is created with, HOW can that NOT BE TRUE??

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[N0help4u]

Yes cred keeps making the accusation that we are saying stuff like "the one and only truth is...."
I have yet to see ALL these one and only truth quotes.

[Allheart]

Ah I see. I get upset too, like all human beings, but I overcome it on my own.

Here, for you:

OMG I love that!! The world is awesome, isn't it :)

I was singing right with it!! I do love the whole world :)

[shatteredsoul]

NoHelp4u... You are right and I really think its ridiculous. Maybe it is due to a paranoia of sorts but I haven't seen one consistent message of any specific truth.. Just people's perception of faith. THAT Is what the poster was asking about.. THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT!! :)

Allheart, that is what I so wonderful about you, you send a message of love to everyone... what in the world could ever be wrong with that?? Xoxo;)

[Credendovidis]

shatteredsoul / N0help4u

yes cred keeps making the accusation that we are saying stuff like "the one and only truth is...."
I have yet to see ALL these one and only truth quotes.

The problem is that all theists use quotes like "God did this" or "God knows that", many even talk about the Christian "truth" , or even about "the one and only truth".
What they mean is that they BELIEVE that .

That is what I wanted to make very clear.

===

About my post : That is an incorrect statement.

That post stands, and although partly replied (to the first lines only), the essence of the post was not replied to. Of course not, as that part of the post can not be denied to be correct.

:rolleyes:

·

[N0help4u]

And what we would like are is to see these actual quotes we use cause we haven't seen them used here. Maybe we are overlooking them so we would like the 'proof' so for future reference we can correct it:rolleyes:

[Allheart]

I agree Cred - I haven't seen those quotes either "the one and only truth". I will tell you this, that I do believe it to be a truth, that God does exist, and everyone, will be introduced to God at one point in their lives and will make a choice as to whether to accept Him or deny Him. That everyone will be armed with enough information about God to be able to make that conscious choice. That those that continue to deny Him, will not have eternal life with Him.

Not sure why we are introduced at different stages in our lives, maybe so we can help each other and long and make sure none of us are lost on the way.

( p.s. I do love you Shattered :) many hugs)

[shatteredsoul]

Religion is a way of of life, a set of beliefs and stories that have been told and retold and indoctrinated throughout history and time. Different ones were created to make people feel safer about things they will never understand. It is a set of moral and ethical standards and rules to abide by. It doesn't really have anything to do with God. Religion is a tool to control people and used to create definite understandings about our creation and our existence.

RELIGION ASIDE... God has NOT been disproven either. YEs it may take faith to believe in an existence greater than yourself, but with all the science and technology we have, there is nothing that can prove God doesn't exist either. It is all in your perception of what you think God is. Faith can be viewed as what we use in place of a proven hypothesis. Although there is evolution, there is nothing that has disproved God's existence before evolution occured.

I am certain that the more I know, the less I understand. However in dealing with my own experiences with death and loss I have learned something. WE are here to grow and evolve spiritually, WITHIN. WE are here to be connected to the energy that is on this earth and in every living thing. We are here to love and be loved. I don't need faith to know this, I have come to realize it as my truth. My faith is in what I believe will happen after this existence.. I think my soul has lived before and goes on to live again.. I don't know where, how or when. My faith keeps me going so I am not afraid of the unknown.

Ultimately, not having faith doesn't disprove God exists either. I know there are miracles right in front of us everyday in nature, with our families and children and throughout the world that constitute a faith in something greater than us. WE may only focus on what is evil, corrupt, tragic, painful or unclear, but we can also focus on the complete opposite. In changing our perspective to recognizing beauty, love and joy, it allows us heightened awareness and opportunity for spiritual growth and a recognition of a God, NOT somewhere out there or up above, but within each one of us. As we are all connected, we are all one, and thus we are all God.

Just as when people are silent, with nature, praying or meditating, or doing yoga, they are able to become calm, peaceful and feel "one" with universe. That is what I am talking about, that is the time when people become aware of the energy and being connected to it. They feel a complete detachment from pain, suffering or sadness.. that is what being one with spirit will do. That is how God exists for me. I try to be aware all the time but sometimes I am distracted, weak and selfish. The good thing is, since we were born with free will, we are able to learn from our mistakes and become better people. That is why I don't adhere to religion because it is about punishment and sinning, and that isn't all what God is about.. (AT LEAST FOR ME)

YOU TELL ME WHERE YOU RESPONDED TO MY ENTIRE POST WHEN REALLY THE ONLY THNG YOU RESPONDED TO WAS MY POINT ABOUT DISPROVING GOD EXISTS. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT YOU ARE THE ONE WHO ANSWERS ONLY PART OF WHAT OTHERS SAY AND THEN RUN WITH IT; YOU ARE LIKE A BAD JOURNALIST WHO MISREPRESENTS QUOTES AND WHAT PEOPLE REALLY ARE TRYING TO COMMUNICATE. IT IS SAD REALLY.

Moreover, I don't have to prove something to be true for it to be true. IF that is the case how do you prove your own theory of EXISTENCE, which hasn't been "proven" by anyone.. they are simply theories. Even if you were to say the "Big Bang" is what has been proven, there is nothing that makes God less existent because of it. WHat my interpretation of God is, is not AT ALL RELIGIOUS and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH SPREADING ANY WORD.. YOu take what religious zealots say in other posts and respond to everyone with the same rhetoric. YOu are wrong and your slippery slope of an argument holds no more water than mine..

MY own perspective of God is that we are all made up of the same energy and thus we are all connected and we are all God. God isn't a man in the sky holding a staff and rod waiting to punish. IT is the unexplainable mystery of our ability to love and be loved that cannot be proven or explained, but cannot be denied, THAT IS WHAT GOD IS... and everything else in between. GOD is a term I use, but I do not label myself a DEIST or whatever, I don't enforce my beliefs upon others and I am quite aware of YOUR TRUTHS being the one that is forced down people's throats. So, before you judge another's response, make sure you are responding to what is said, NOT JUST WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY.. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[asking]

That post stands, and although partly replied (to the first lines only), the essence of the post was not replied to. Of course not, as that part of the post can not be denied to be correct.

Well I appreciated it. I laughed because it so logical and incontrovertible and so utterly inaccessible to those to whom you are writing. Faith, clearly, is not about logic.

But it does seem unfair for believers to argue that the existence of God is not subject to proof but that unbelievers are under some sort of obligation to justify not believing. I think we should be able to play by the same rules.

[shatteredsoul]

I don't know WHAT BELIEVERS you are talking about, but I never said anything about God not being subject to proof or that a NON BELIEVER is under some sort of obligation to justify ANYTHING.. WHAT IS SAID IS THAT NEITHER HAS BEEN DISPROVED OR CAN BE PROVED so BOTH SIDES TAKE AN ELEMENT OF FAITH TO BELIEVE IN..

IT is amazing how you hear what you want to hear and if anyone is playing by their own rules.. its you.

[N0help4u]

I don't know WHAT BELIEVERS you are talking about, but I never said anything about God not being subject to proof or that a NON BELIEVER is under some sort of obligation to justify ANYTHING.. WHAT IS SAID IS THAT NEITHER HAS BEEN DISPROVED OR CAN BE PROVED so BOTH SIDES TAKE AN ELEMENT OF FAITH TO BELIEVE IN..

IT is amazing how you hear what you want to hear and if anyone is playing by their own rules.. its you.

I SECOND THAT !

[margog85]

Okay, I haven't been able to respond to everyone, so I'll try to briefly go through and respond to what everyone has posted so far in response to my question. I am asking a lot of questions, and not to be rude in anyway. I'm genuinely asking these things. I know a lot of times, things written can come off rudely or condescendingly when they're not meant to be. So please know in advance that any questions I ask are genuine questions to which I hope to receive answers, and not in any way a criticism of anyone's responses. I appreciate everyone's input and hope to hear more from everyone about this.

Fr. Chuck- I'm not saying that I don't see a possibility of there being something greater than us. I feel that there's something behind all of this. I just don't understand how people can have such strong beliefs in the specifics of the nature of that something-greater. How can we assume that it's some intelligent being, that it's a being that is good, that there's a personal dimension to this being, that you can communicate with this being, that it is a BEING and not just some sort of energy. Where do these ideas come from and how can they be believed so strongly? It just seems to possible to me for these beliefs to stem from our own longing and needs. From loneliness. From a need we need to fill, to have some sort of connection to something outside of ourselves, some sort of guidance or protection... I just want to know how people progress from a belief that there is SOMETHING out there (which I do believe) to the specifics of a religion. It just seems like there are too many assumptions made. And with the number of religions out there with their own ideas and beliefs, which are often an interpretation and understanding of whatever this something-else is filtered through their culture, society, upbringing, etc... I just don't think I can believe something strongly that I know is so shaped by society, culture, and assumption rather than by truth.

rsvp209- A lot of things happened that made me realize that my religion was not a good fit for me. Mainly the way that people reacted and treated me when I came out. I'm gay, and people at church seemed to treat me differently, my family changed the locks on me and told me what a rotten sinner I was and told me that they didn't trust me around my younger sister because I was just as 'perverted' as a child molestor. My beliefs didn't line up with the religion that had once been a major part of my life, because no matter how much I prayed, and cried, and read about it, and talked about it, I just couldn't wrap my mind around why they believe the things they do. Those events shook me pretty deeply, and I started questioning everything- I lost my sense of security and really just had a hard time believing in anything. As I said in response to Fr. Chuck, I still believe there is something more than what I can see, but I have a very hard time believing in the specifics of a religion. I'm not an atheist, I'd say more of an agnostic- I believe there is something more, but I have no way of really understanding what that something more is. Your analogy of hope and faith doesn't make much sense to me. Hope is wanting something you don't know if you'll get or not. Which seems to be logical, esp. if you're working towards getting whatever it is you hope for. Faith is believing in something you can never know for sure. How are those the same?

WVHiflyer- I do miss it sometimes, but I can't blindly believe in something anymore- and you're right, I think there is a sense of belonging to something bigger that I miss. Now the only something 'bigger' I belong to is the company I work for. And that's not much fun (lol). As far as why I believed when I did... I questioned my beliefs very young, around 12 or 13. Was raised Catholic, and then declared myself an atheist. Went through the whole 'life-is-hard-because-I'm-an-angsty-teen' phase, and 'found' god and went back to Catholicism. Didn't check out other religions really. But believing gave me a sense of comfort, belonging, and acceptance that I didn't have anywhere else at that point. I think part of me wants to return to some sort of organized belief system just to have some sort of clarity, which I feel I lack now... but at the same time, there are so many holes and questions I see in the beliefs I look into that I don't think I could ever really fully believe in the doctrine of a specific religion again. Have you ever wished you could just turn your mind off for a bit so you could go through the motions and feel whatever kind of connection to that 'something bigger' that other religious people feel? And not be so aware of the feeling that your tricking yourself? That's kind of how I feel right now... it's weird. I feel that I don't 'need' a god to live a good life, or to deal with things, or that reward/punishment should dictate my actions or anyone elses--- I don't know, I guess I'm just kind of thinking about where I was, where I am, and where (if anywhere) I'm going, and trying to see why and how people can make the claims they do...

firmbeliever- I'm glad that your happy with your beliefs, but I really didn't gather from your response why you believe what you do, except that it makes sense to you and that it provides answers to your questions. But do you ever wonder if your beliefs are 'right'- like, if what you believe about god is actually what really is? Because there are so many religions out there, all of which make sense to and provide answers to those who believe in that religion. Are all religions equally valid, and truth something relative? I have a really hard time understanding that.

credendovidis- I appreciate you input and response. It seems that god cannot be proven or disproven- and I feel like I'm not just going to believe until I'm proven wrong. I do believe that there is something more than what I can see- maybe that is just me hanging on to what I'm used to, I don't know just yet. I guess that's another thing I'll figure out in time.

nohelp4u- I guess it could be, but I don't think so. And I never said I didn't believe- I said that I do believe that there is something more, but I have no idea what. And I firmly believe that I have no idea what that is, and I strongly doubt I ever will- but I want to if it's possible. Which is why I presented this question- to see how other people can believe and have faith in something when there are so many variables and no way that I can see to really be sure of anything. And in response to your second post on this thread... you said 'we do not have to prove anything because faith is to be believed not proven or it would not be faith'- I really just don't understand that. It seems like, then, you could make up any old thing and believe it... and there'd be no way of anyone knowing that what they believe is true, because there's not a basis for it... so then, knowing that, how could you really believe?

shatteredsoul- I agree that religion is a tool to control people- but I don't know if that was the main purpose of religion, but instead what it has evolved into. It seems a little too much like a conspiracy theory to me. No offense- but I feel like people offered explanations for things they couldn't understand that were then passed on and became common beliefs among groups, religions formed, numbers of believers grew and organization became necessary, and whenever there is an organization, esp. where there is some sort of hierarchy, there is also corruption and abuse of power. Again, I find your beliefs interesting, but what are they based upon? How did you come to those beliefs, with all of the others out there? Was it just what made sense to you? And if so, then it seems like religious 'truth' is relative, since different things make sense to different people depending upon experience, perception, etc. And as far as 'connection' with god or whatever spirit there is that allows people to feel calm or disconnect from pain they are feeling- doesn't it seem possible that that could be pyschological? Something within our own physical capacity to control, not something we get from some outside source?

Allheart- I always appreciate your posts, and wish I knew you personally. You are such a kind and loving person, and I really admire and respect that. It's not common. I wonder, though... you say that life would be bleek without god's love- and I wonder if that's because it's something you're used to and it would seem bleek if it was absent after feeling that it was there. I don't feel like I have any sort of 'personal' relationship with god and I don't know for certain that god is capable of something as human as love or the other emotions often attributed to god. I wonder if that's our projection of what we want and/or can understand onto whatever that 'being' or 'energy' is. Anyway, I don't have that kind of belief, and I feel my life is far from bleek. I do see goodness and beauty in all people, and a lot of times seeing that (i.e. being with my partner and feeling that connection that we have) makes me feel like there is something more to life than skin and bones and dirt and air... like there's some sort of spiritual dimension, some sort of... something else to who we are that could cause me to feel the way I do when I'm with her, or when I see something beautiful in nature... I guess I don't really doubt that there's something more, but I question how people can get down to the specifics of their beliefs. It just seems like there's so much to work through to get to that nitty gritty detail, and so many people have come up with so many different answers, how can you be sure that what you have faith in is really the right thing? Like I said to others, it seems like it can be such a relative matter, I don't get it.

NeedKarma- I agree that I can live my life fine w/o belief in something bigger than me- I have been, I guess, because even though I have a feeling that there may be more, I know nothing about whatever that something more could be, so it doesn't impact my life much like it does for religious people. I can handle things, and I do so on my own. I don't pray, I don't adhere to any religious beliefs... but I just wonder about it all. So many people believe in something... but they all believe in different things, even within the same religion sometimes. Is there something to it? To any of it? Does each religion have a little bit of truth?



And in regard to whatever this debating is all about... I'm not touching that one. Lol. I'm not here to argue or accuse anyone of forcing their beliefs or discuss how religious people do or do not conduct themselves- I just have questions and want to hear from people and discuss their answers. That's all.

[Credendovidis]

.... it does seem unfair for believers to argue that the existence of God is not subject to proof but that unbelievers are under some sort of obligation to justify not believing. I think we should be able to play by the same rules.

Excellent point !

:D

·

[WVHiflyer]

That those that continue to deny Him, will not have eternal life with Him.

I didn't post here originally to argue faith, but I do have a question for your post: why assume anyone, at least "one who denies," cares about an "eternal life with Him"? I don't. I seek to do my good here and now because I don't believe there's anything after. Some need to feel they'll 'live' for an eternity. By the time I die, I'll just want to rest. :D :rolleyes:

[WVHiflyer]

way that people reacted and treated me when I came out. I'm gay, and people at church seemed to treat me differently, my family changed the locks on me and told me what a rotten sinner I was and told me that they didn't trust me around my younger sister because I was just as 'perverted' as a child molestor. My beliefs didn't line up with the religion that had once been a major part of my life, because no matter how much I prayed, and cried, and read about it, and talked about it, I just couldn't wrap my mind around why they believe the things they do. Those events shook me pretty deeply, and I started questioning everything- I lost my sense of security and really just had a hard time believing in anything.

That's the problem with many organized religions - too many become hung up in the 'rules' and forget the spirit of the faith (at least with the 3 big monotheist ones). Remember Christ's basic teachings and find a sect that concentrates on the loving nature of those instead of ones that take too much of the brimstone from the Old Testament.

people offered explanations for things they couldn't understand that were then passed on and became common beliefs among groups, religions formed, numbers of believers grew and organization became necessary, and whenever there is an organization, esp. where there is some sort of hierarchy, there is also corruption and abuse of power

Couldn't have said it beter myself.

makes me feel like there is something more to life than skin and bones and dirt and air... like there's some sort of spiritual dimension, some sort of... something else to who we are that could cause me to feel the way I do when I'm with her, or when I see something beautiful in nature... I guess I don't really doubt that there's something more, but I question how people can get down to the specifics of their beliefs.

Think of the meditation of the Eastern religions. Clearing one's mind to 'become one with the universe.' Atheist that I am, I can't put a spiritual spin on that, but maybe they're hearing the musical tones of the vibrating strings (string theory of quantum mechanics) <G> Since you do believe in 'something,' ;earning to meditate properly may clear your thoughts so you can connect with it (whatever it is). To some, the connection with another person is an 'earthly substitute.' Relish it - no matter what others think.

Good luck winding your way through the spiritual minefield.

[Choux]

Margog,

I don't have time to read all the other answers now, but I would like to tell you that No one would believe in Christianity or Islam or Judaism, the monotheistic religions, if they didn't have it indoctrinated into them as children. If an adult by some longshot of luck never heard of Christianity, for example, until he was 25, he would reject it as preposterous ancient storytelling, not as anything resembling what really happened long ago!

That does not mean you have to give up on having a "spiritual" life. Einstein wrote about his thoughts on god, not a personal god as depicted in the Bible, but different.

Best wishes,

[N0help4u]

I wasn't indoctrinated when I was growing up. When I was little I 'knew' there had to be something and nobody ever really explained it to me.