[orange]

Maybe this should be in the tips forum, but I'll post it here first...

My husband's brother and sister-in-law died in an accident and we are adopting their 2 children, ages 4 and 6. I am also pregnant with my first child. I know the children well and I really love them, but I'm worried about parenting them, as I've never had any children before. I figured I would just learn as I went along, with my baby, when he was born. But now I feel I need to learn things really quick! Maybe I'm stressing too much, but anyway I would appreciate some advice.

First of all, does anyone have any recommendations of good childcare websites or books? Would it be a good idea for my husband and I to go to a parenting class? I am not even sure what should be a good bedtime for them, how much they should eat, what I should tolerate and shouldn't tolerate behaviour wise, how much TV they should be allowed to watch, etc, etc... I know a lot of those things are individual and vary among families, but I really feel clueless and stupid. I have my husband's parents and my adoptive parents to ask for advice as well, but if anyone has any good suggestions, ideas, etc, I would really appreciate it. Right now we are staying at my husband's parents' house, but we will be flying home with the children (! ) this coming Monday, and I'm starting to freak out about it!

[kp2171]

I'm sorry to hear about the tragedy and moved by your graciousness in this tough time.

I think you can use as much support as possible. Kids thrive on routine. Things will be rough because they don't know yours and you don't know theirs, but one thing that will help them in this confusing time is some sense of routine in their day. Having dinners together, setting aside time for recreation, things like that give them something to hold on to.

My wife was a single mother when she had her first child. She was scared to death. She thought there would be some divine moment where all she needed to know would magically come to her. It didn't. You do the best you can, using your mind and heart... and kids generally do well despite of us. As long as they get some fundamentals.

When I met my wife she had an 11 year old. Very diff circumstances than yours... but one mistake I made was giving the child too much room. She didn't like me at first. She was angry I was around. But I probably gave her a little too much room. Once she saw I was genuinely interested in her, she slowly came around.

My wife once said, when things were tough, that her daughter was a good person who was just upset for now, but she'd come around. I'd suggest keeping that in mind. When things are trying, just understand the best is in front of you. Things will get better.

Obviously having support, having an outlet, will be helpful to you. Don't be afraid to lean on friends and family. And don't be afraid to be selffish sometimes too... you'll have a baby and two children to look after, but you also have a marriage. Sometimes an hour together alone can recharge you when things get nuts.

I don't want to ramble on anymore that I already have. Just take it one day at a time. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. You will. But you'll do more things right than wrong just by paying attention, being patient, and loving them.

Best regards.

[fredg]

Hi, Orange,
You and your husband are very, very wonderful people. Adopting the two children is a Blessing for them, and will be for both of you, too.
Just take it one day at a time. I have never had an "instant" family, but did help in raising my step-daughter, she was 5 at the time.
The children will let you know what they like, such as foods, drinks, when they normally go to bed, get up, etc. for starters.
Both you and your husband know what is best for them, how to treat them. You might not know it yet, but you do. You both love them, and I'm sure they love you. You will learn more with each day. Please try not to be worried about anything; it will come together!
Both your families will be a wealth of information, as to how to handle situations when they come up. Your families raised you and your husband to be wonderful people. Their advice is priceless!

[Fr_Chuck]

First I am sorry for the loss, and with that, the children will need extra love and attention,

But they are just little people, they eat when you eat and what you eat.
When they are full they will not eat, when they are hungry they will tell you. You can put them to bed when you go to bed, ( we use a 9 or 10 pm bedtime for our 5 year old)

I can understand the "worry" but as a father of 5 ( oldest 30 and youngest 5) you give them lots of hugs, kisses when they fall, don't let them play one parent againts the other, a swat on the behind when they do wrong, and they graduate college before you know it.

Most of the books out now adays in my opinoin give a lot of bad advice, and children do need a routine of sorts, they also like change at times too.

If they are too tired, they get fussy, you can't miss it believe me

[kp2171]

Yes. Good point. As much as a routine will help them get comfortable with the situation, mixing things up is important too. Gives them a chance to get excited about new things... the zoo, a new playground... one of the joys of being a parent is getting to be a little bit of a kid again.

[kbhelp]

I have 4 children (2 boys- 22 & 19, 2 girls- 6 & 7). After raising two boys, I did things differently with the girls, having been there done that.

Children love routine and structure. They need to count on certain things, and it leaves little room for argument. "I know you don't like such-and-such, but that's the rule." My kids start getting ready for bed at 7:30 every night and we read until 8. (Bathtime at 7 on Sundays and Wednesdays.) Small children need lots of sleep, especially if they have to get up early in the morning for school or daycare. Plus, all we have to do is look at the clock, and everyone knows what is expected.

VERY IMPORTANT - parents MUST present a united front. There is nothing worse than one parent being undermined by the other in front of the children. If you don't agree on something, talk about it at some other time. But come up with a plan about how certain situations will be handled. I say a lot "what did Daddy say?" or "Daddy just told you to do such-and-such. Now go do it." whether I think it's right or not. I expect the same from him.

Try to limit vices. My kids don't drink sodas, don't even like them. They LOVE raw baby carrots, pickles, and tomatoes. Sugared cereals every other day (and only because my husband started them on it!) They are not allowed to watch TV at all on school nights, and only a few hours on weekends.

Pick your arguments. My youngest wears the same skirt to school every day, I have to steal it to wash it. We don't like it, but there are more important things to argue about.

If you can find someone teaching a class on Love & Logic Parenting, I think every parent should be REQUIRED to take it. It is phenomenal.

Good luck to you both. You are doing a wonderful and courageous thing. Imagine the day you watch them graduate from high school or college - you'll know it was all worth it. Their parents will be smiling down on you then and now.

[kp2171]

Yeah, you have to pick your battles, like with the shirt. Mine wanted to carry around his jack-o-lantern for weeks after halloween. Oh well.

Your point about reading at bedtime is a good one. My little one has a later bedtime... he's just wired like me... so he goes to bed toward 9:00 but he can also sleep in until 8:30. So 10 or more hours of sleep isn't uncommon unless you're dealing with a teenager. Then its like 16 hours on the weekend...

But reading at bedtime is a great way to find a routine. Dinner, bath, reading, bed. We read sooo many books. Hard to complain about it. And while he has his favorites, its good to rotate a variety of books. I think my father-in-law saw a study that said students who performed well in reading skills were not necessarily read to often, but were read a wide range of books. Makes sense. Plus we grownups get to rediscover all of our old favorites and find new ones. My 19 year old was grumpy that we'd never read her sandra boynton's "snuggle puppy" or "birthday monsters"... she didn't care that they were written long after she had long outgrown her "jam-jams" (pj's) and her "banky" (blanket, of course).

[orange]

Thanks everyone for all the wonderful advice and suggestions. I'm saving everything in a special file on the computer.

Fredg, I gave everyone else a positive comment, and I wanted to give you one too, but the system says I have to spread more rep around. Anyway I will try again later. Your advice to me was excellent too, and I don't want you to feel left out!

Anyway, you guys have given me a lot to think about. I'm glad you mentioned bedtimes, because I was wondering about that. During this past week (we are staying at the grandparents house for the shiva/mourning) the children have been going to bed at 8 pm or 8:30 at the latest, and getting up at around 7 am. So I'm thinking I would like to keep the bedtime of 8 pm for both of them. The fact that they get up early is fine as both my husband and I are morning people. Do you think that both can go to bed at the same time, even though one is older than the other? At what age should bedtime be increased to 9 pm or so?

Now here's where things get a little difficult. The contents of the children's rooms (toys, furniture, clothes, etc) are going to get packed up and shipped by moving van to where we live. My husbands family is paying for this, as they felt it the transition would be easier for the kids if they had they had basically the same rooms as before. We are quickly looking for a bigger house, as our current one has only 2 bedrooms and one bathroom. Anyway. My problem is, the children EACH have a TV and DVD player in their rooms, the 4-year also has a Nintendo Gamecube in his room, and the 6-year-old has a computer with internet access in her room!! I am very very opposed to all of this. I don't think any of those items should be in a bedroom. I would rather we purchase a house with an extra room which can be a family room and/or playroom, and all those items can go in there. So I guess my question about that is, will it be really hard on the children if I take the electronic "toys" away? I'm not saying they can't ever use them, but I don't want them in the bedrooms where they are possibly unsupervised. They've been without these things for the week or so that we've been at the grandparents, so it won't be completely new.

I have many more questions but I'll leave it at that for now. Thanks again to all of you.

[NeedKarma]

Just a quick note: did any of the grandparents babysit the children often? They would a good resource for finding out the kid's routines, habits, special likes/dislikes, special rules the parents had, etc.

I agree with many previous posts. Lots of love, positive reinforcement for good behaviour, set consistent boundaries for behaviour. You'll be rewarded by the unconditional love in return and be amazed at their growth and progress.

[kbhelp]

My kids beg for a TV (or a phone or a playstation, yada, yada) in their room, but it is important to stand firm. Children pick up on wishy-washy parents and will learn to manipulate them. Repeat this mantra in your head "*I* am the parent!" Even though I can be fairly strict with my kids, they still come to me for a spontaneous hug or cuddle. I think they really do appreciate strong parents even though they may not show it all the time.

My 6 and almost-8 yr old go to bed at the same time, always have. They rarely complain. They probably would if one got to go to bed later.

Try this website : http://www.loveandlogic.com/

[jduke44]

did any of the grandparents babysit the children often? They would a good resource for finding out the kid's routines, habits, special likes/dislikes, special rules the parents had, etc.

OUr kid's grandparents think they know the child better than the parents. In this case their grandparents will know more than you. Need gave good advice on checking with them. The kids may think they will get away with anything because you won't know any better. They need to get an understanding in the beginning that your rules may differ from their parents rules and that you will do the best you can in keeping the same routine for them. Parenting classes are OK. The one kbhelp recommended may be good, I have never been to one. I just want to warn you to only use them as a model. You might find all the advice they give is what you want to use but then again some things may not work with your children.

Now here's where things get a little difficult. The contents of the children's rooms (toys, furniture, clothes, etc) are going to get packed up and shipped by moving van to where we live. My husbands family is paying for this, as they felt it the transition would be easier for the kids if they had they had basically the same rooms as before. We are quickly looking for a bigger house, as our current one has only 2 bedrooms and one bathroom. Anyway. My problem is, the children EACH have a TV and DVD player in their rooms, the 4-year also has a Nintendo Gamecube in his room, and the 6-year-old has a computer with internet access in her room!! I am very very opposed to all of this. I don't think any of those items should be in a bedroom. I would rather we purchase a house with an extra room which can be a family room and/or playroom, and all those items can go in there. So I guess my question about that is, will it be really hard on the children if I take the electronic "toys" away? I'm not saying they can't ever use them, but I don't want them in the bedrooms where they are possibly unsupervised

I feel the same way. This is a tough one because you don't want to come across as taking ALL their things away but you also WILL have different parenting styles. You also don't want to come across as you think their parents did things wrong. I wondering if they didn't get read to a lot or played games with that is something you could substitute for that other stuff? I don't think there is any clear cut advice to give necessarily.

[orange]

OUr kid's grandparents think they know the child better than the parents. In this case their grandparents will know more than you. Need gave good advice on checking with them.

Yes this is a great idea. Actually we are staying with Alex's parents right now, and they generally see the kids about once a week. When I get a moment I will ask Alex's mother about it.

I feel the same way. This is a tough one because you don't want to come across as taking ALL their things away but you also WILL have different parenting styles. You also don't want to come across as you think their parents did things wrong. I wondering if they didn't get read to a lot or played games with that is something you could substitute for that other stuff? I don't think there is any clear cut advice to give necessarily.

Actually you're right, jduke, they didn't see much of their parents at all. Both were partners in a law firm and worked full time. They had a live-in housekeeper who also served as nanny for the children. The housekeeper is a very nice lady, a widow with grown children who is originally from Trinidad. She has been with them since they were born. Since her own family is grown and not living in Vancouver, she would very much like to come back with us! The children actually want her too. But we can't afford to pay her salary. There may be some provisions for her continued employment in the will, or the family may allot some money for that... but it's all up in the air right now. In any event, I am a stay at home mom so I won't need her as much as if I was working. The children have actually told me they are very excited that I don't work. They are looking forward to us spending all day together, all the time... lucky me. :rolleyes: Still, the housekeeper is a nice lady and if it was affordable it would be great to have the extra support around the house, especially after I have the baby.

Actually come to think of it.. the housekeeper probably knows the children's schedules better than anyone, so I will ask her too!

I've more or less decided that I want the electronics out of their bedrooms. I mentioned it just in passing to the children tonight, saying that I would let them have a "welcome to your new home" present in their rooms in place of the electronics. Shaina said she wants a fish tank, and Levi hasn't decided yet, but they seem agreeable to it so far... I'm sure the present part sealed the deal. It seems a bit like a bribe but I really don't want them spending so much time watching TV and playing video games. I also told them we would do a lot more things together since I don't work, and like I said they are excited about that.

[talaniman]

Raising kids requires a lot of patients and a lot of love and attention, and since they don't come with manuals a lot of support from husbands and grandparents. As far as the zoo goes ,the same advice applies.:cool: :)

[Fr_Chuck]

I have tried it various ways with my boys over the years. First any computer with internet has to be in a public area where what is being seen can be seen by everyone and anyone passing by.

Next of course a good filter and you check history of sites visited on a regular basis.

Ok on the TV, we control what programs can and can't be watched but we do allow a TV in the bed room, it stops the child from controlling what gets watched on the main TV ( but if you have enough room for a TV area for the kids that could work also. But if you have more than one, one will want to watch this program and another that program, one will want country music, another rap music. One will want to play a game while another plays another game or watch TV on the one playing the game.

We have set up in our child room a center ( with cabinet) with the TV DVD player and game machine ( and a CD player) But the child has to ask prior to use and tell us every 1/2 hour what they are watching. The computer that the child uses is in the dinning area ( did not have another place for it) but that way any site accessed can be seen easily by others.

I don't think if the child behaves and makes proper use, to allow them items in their room. But they have to often be forced to actually go outside and I find today's kids are often bored just "playing" outside, unless it is on a Game Boy.

[orange]

Thanks again, Fr Chuck, for the great advice. We are house hunting yet again (sigh) because the house we just purchased is now too small. But we're looking for a house that would include a family room / common room, and that's where I want all the electronics to go. Since we now have a grand total of 6 TVs, 4 DVD players, 3 computers and 2 Gamecubes, I think we're going to be doing a bit of downsizing! Alex and I are both not very big TV watchers, and because Alex works so much, anything we DO watch is recorded on our DVR and played at a later time. We rarely watch shows when they are actually on. So I'm hoping we can get the children into that habit as well. We are considering trading in or selling all 6 TVs and getting one large "fancy" one for the family room. I think one TV in the house is more than enough! I really like your idea of having everything together in the same place.

I don't think if the child behaves and makes proper use, to allow them items in their room. But they have to often be forced to actually go outside and I find today's kids are often bored just "playing" outside, unless it is on a Game Boy.

Well the children have a large play structure in their current backyard (it's going to be dismantled and sent to us), as well as bikes, skis and hockey equipment. So they better like playing outside haha, because I'm going to kick them out everyday unless it's 40 below.

[s_cianci]

Talking to people who have reared children is definitely a good idea. Keep in mind also that your new children are going to be going through quite an adjustment ; new home, new parents, new baby sibling soon, all after having lost their original parents. Their world is being turned upside down. What I'm trying to say in all of this is that the usual "rules" that others might coach you on where raising a 6 and 4-yr. old are concerned won't always apply or will apply in altered form due to the unique circumstances in this case. More than anything else consistency is what will be the most important thing for them. They're going to need it in order to regain a sense of security that has been snatched out from under them due to the tragic demise of their original parents. Do what you're comfortable with and what you feel is appropriate regarding bedtimes, eating, behavior, TV, etc. but be consistent and establish a firm routine that they can depend on. That's the biggest thing you can do for them right now. Things may have to be altered a bit once the new baby comes along but even then re-establish a routine that fits in with your taking care of the new baby and stick with it. When it is necessary to make changes, inform the children first and explain to them why the change is taking place. Once again, be consistent and follow through with the change once you've explained it to them.

[orange]

Thanks so much s_cianci. I agree strongly with consistency and routine. We've only been home a couple of days, and already I've had some challenges with this! I hope I'm doing the right thing... I am trying my best, and also trying hard to be understanding with the children.

[Myth]

Have you thought about counseling for the children. I have worked as a nanny and in childcare with children waiting on courts to see if they can go back to their parents or not in temp foster care. I loved it. I would see a lot of different behavior types and we are a product of our societies. Be it our household, school or work and we are heavily influenced by that. I would find some way to keep those kids' nanny. It seems like she might be the only stable thing in their young lifes. It will also help them adjust to the new rules that your setting up that may differ. I would expect everything to go just fine for the first six months or so and then to have a blow up about missing mommy and daddy. In my experience with children this age that's what usually happens after they've settled into this new routine with their new parents. Granted this may take longer with the baby on the way. I just want to remind you that they more than likely will need their own mourning time and it usually takes longer that us adults to really hit home. We tend to rush things like that and force ourselves to "get on with life". Children don't really have that option yet, and it typically doesn't settle in until all the changes for their well being are done and life has become calm again. I have seen this many, many times throughout the years. I am sure that others here have too. The stress of the loss might be history to us adults but to them it's on the back burner until they can cope with all the changes and allow themselves time to deal with it and that time isn't usually until they feel comfortable in their new surroundings. I can't tell you how many nights I've sat up rocking a child while he or she has cried their little eyes out because it just got to be too much for them to deal with. I have always used a journal to express my feelings and keep them in order and I have recommended that the kids do the same in order to be able to see what they were feeling and when and how they reacted to it. Once a week I reread my thoughts for the week and analyze how I felt and what made me feel that way. It has helped me though a life that has been hard but no harder than anyone else's, just different. I mention a counsler because children at the ages we are discussing typically don't know how to write well enough to express themselves in this manner. Also a counsler will be able to offer you feedback in a way that will not undermine the children's trust in that person. It will be very important that they have someone that they can trust that isn't a parental figure. While your setting down the rules and regs they might not know how to approch you to tell you something is bothering them and this is where the trust issue comes up. It's not that they don't trust you at all, cause typically they do, they just have the need for a go between.
I just realised that I'm babbling so I will leave off there... sorry. I do hope at least some of this was helpful to you.

[orange]

Thanks Myth. I am placing the children in a grief support group for kids who have lost a parent. They start next week. I'm not sure about individual counselling yet, but the grief group is run by a psychologist and a nurse therapist, so I figured I can talk to them, and after they know the children a bit they can advise me on whether (or when) further therapy is needed.

And regarding Kadane (that's the housekeeper's name), I do really want her, but it's all still up in the air. She's taking an "extended leave" at the moment, visiting her children who live in Ontario. Basically she's waiting to see if we will hire her. Like I said we can't afford her, but we are hopeful that Alex's parents might help us with that. Just the other night they told us that when we look for a new house, we should make sure there's room in it for Kadane, so I think that's a hint that they are going to help. We are looking for a place right now, as we want to be moved by May 1. I certainly hope we are able to have Kadane with us... it seems kind of extravagant to me (I'm used to being poor, haha), but besides it being good for the children, it will be a big help for me, especially right after I have my baby. And Kadane is basically part of the extended family. As long as I've known her I've considered her like kind of an aunt. She's a very nice lady and I would love her support.

Don't worry about "babbling" as you call it. Actually what you said about the children and counselors makes sense and has made me really think. I really appreciate it. :)

[Myth]

Not a problem hun... though I might suggest a family councler too... that way you can all have a netural ground to stand on.