[natalieblueeyes]

My Kohler Pinoir round front toilet K-3483 is smaller than the diagram that was posted and the distance from the wall on the rough-in diagram is 3/4" -- not 1" as shown for the larger toilet.

I bought the small toilet because it was going to be a tight fit. With a 3/4" distance between the wall and the toilet tank, it meets code. With a 1 1/2" distance between the wall and the toilet tank, it doesn't.

The toilet was on site, the wall was right there. It would be real easy to see that if the toilet is set out too far, there will not be 21" inches to the wall. Isn't the plumber responsible for following the instructions and installing the toilet 3/4" from the wall to meet code requirement?

Natalie

[iamgrowler]

My Kohler Pinoir round front toilet K-3483 is smaller than the diagram that was posted and the distance from the wall on the rough-in diagram is 3/4" -- not 1" as shown for the larger toilet.

Right you are, I had to dig a bit deeper to find the R/I specs for the round front.

I bought the small toilet because it was going to be a tight fit. With a 3/4" distance between the wall and the toilet tank, it meets code. With a 1 1/2" distance between the wall and the toilet tank, it doesn't.

If it were me, I'd phone in for the final inspection and let the Inspector make the call; He/She may decide to let it go and sign you off.

However, the location of the in-wall Cadet heater will likely be a mitigating factor in how the Inspector makes His or Her decision.

The toilet was on site, the wall was right there. It would be real easy to see that if the toilet is set out too far, there will not be 21" inches to the wall. Isn't the plumber responsible for following the instructions and installing the toilet 3/4" from the wall to meet code requirement?

Few Plumbers take the time to mock up or dry set a plumbing fixture, nor are they specifically required to do so -- As for the code requirement, it is the responsibility of the Building/Framing permit holder to ensure that all spaces meet minimum spatial requirements.

BTW, I'm not yet convinced your Plumber roughed things in correctly.

A wax gasket is cheap -- Pull the toilet and make certain the closet flange was installed per Kohler's specifications, also, check to see if he roughed the water supply in correctly.

The water supply stub-out should be 5-1/8" left of the center of the closet flange and 8" to center above the finished floor.

[natalieblueeyes]

Thanks. I'll be gone for 2 weeks so we won't have the inspection until after I get back. I think you are probably right that because of the placement of the heater, the inspector will notice and not let it slide.

I think it was my job to find a small enough toilet and the plumber's job to install it properly. Either the plumber didn't do a 12" rough in or Kohler is wrong that with a 12" rough-in, the toilet tank is 3/4 " from the wall.

I think that is a good idea to pull the toilet and look at it. The water supply stub-out is 5" off the finished floor and about 6 inches from the center of the toilet -- if I understood what you were saying. Is that bad?

Natalie

[speedball1]

Hey Natalie,

The water supply stub-out is 5" off the finished floor and about 6 inches from the center of the toilet -- if I understood what you were saying. Is that bad?

That's about where we put ours with the closet flange 11 1/2" off a finished wall to the center of the flange. Measure the wall to your bolts and take into consideration the molding that runs around the floor line. What do you come up with?

[natalieblueeyes]

From the finished wall to the center of the bolt it is 12 1/8"

We have two toilets that were just installed (same toilet) and the water supply stub out for the other one is at 7" off the finished floor and 5 1/8" from center. From the finished wall to the center of the bolt it is 12" for that one.

For both of them, there is 1 1/2" between the wall and the tank.

Kohler instructions say the water supply stub out shoul be 8" off the floor -- does it matter if the stub out for the one toilet is only 5"?

Natalie

[speedball1]

Kohler instructions say the water supply stub out shoul be 8" off the floor -- does it matter if the stub out for the one toilet is only 5"?

Not really. We made ours 6" up and 6" over. This was 20 years ago when I was out in the field. We gave out supply tubes a little extra length because we had chrome over 1/4" soft copper to bend and fit to the tank opening. Now days they have flexible supplies that install much easier.

From the finished wall to the center of the bolt it is 12 1/8"

With the molding that should put you 12 1/2" fron the finished wall. A tad over what we do our roughs at. Cheers, I'm closing shop and kicking back! Tom

[natalieblueeyes]

Thanks for all of the posts.

I think the plumber's apprentice (who had no supervision) ignored the size of the tank and the manufacturer rough-in information and that is why the tank is 1 1/2" from the wall and why we have the code violation.

Natalie

[Milo Dolezal]

It certainly doesn't look right to have toilet tank sitting 1 1/2" away from the wall. Yes, old houses have toilets far away from the wall. They used to have larger tanks and overall designs called for more space. If you install todays' toilets, you will have that space behind the tank.

These days, all toilets are roughed-in 12" on center, measured from framing to the center of your toilet ring. That way, toilet tank will sit about 1/4" inch away from the wall. With concrete slab floors, you will have to break concrete around the pipe, get low enough to cut it, and than to install off-set ring. With framed floors you will have to do the same - but with less efforts.

If your plumber set the rough-in rings himself, than he didn't pay too much attention to his measurements.

As far as the water supply valve location goes: unless you have Kohler angle stop (supply valve) and rigid supply line - and require plumbed look of your water supply entering your fill valve below the tank - you don't have to worry about its position too much. With flexible lines we use today, the valve doesn't have to be in one specific place - as long as it is below the tank, above the baseboard and on the proper side of the toilet.

[natalieblueeyes]

But if all toilets are roughed in at 12", how is the toilet tank taken into account? The Kohler Pinoir has a smaller tank and it seems like that has to be taken into account.

How are my toilets both 12" inches from the finished wall to the bolt and yet there is 1 1/2" between the tank and the wall. Something isn't right.

Natalie

[Milo Dolezal]

I hope we talk about the same toilet. Here is copy of technical description for Kohler Pinoir (K-3485) toilet. It lists rough in at 12" . Please note that "rough-in" dimension is meant to be measured from the framing of your wall - not from the finished wall + the baseboard.

Kohler Pinoir K-3485 Comfort Height Elongated Toilet with Left-hand Trip Lever,

"... Overview:
Featuring the height of a standard chair for comfort, the Pinoir Comfort Height toilet has straightforward box-band lines and double-ridge detailing that highlight its clean design. This model includes the Ingenium flushing system which delivers complete 3.5-gallon performance in a 1.6-gallon package, an elongated bowl design, a left-hand Polished Chrome trip lever, and a 12 Inch rough-in installation. Coordinate the toilet with the other products in the Pinoir Ensemble to unify your bath or powder room decor...."

[natalieblueeyes]

Thanks. That is the problem. My toilets measure a little over 12" from the finished wall to the bolts, which means that the rough-in was about 12 3/4" -- which explains why the toilet tank is 1 1/2" from the wall instead of 3/4".

Natalie

[iamgrowler]

I hope we talk about the same toilet. Here is copy of technical description for Kohler Pinoir (K-3485) toilet. It lists rough in at 12" . Please note that "rough-in" dimension is meant to be measured from the framing of your wall - not from the finished wall + the baseboard.

That is incorrect, Milo.

Rough-in specs for a W/C are *always* the distance from the face of the finished wall to the center of the closet flange.

There are far too many variables involved in wall coverings and finishes for a rough framing distance to be called out.

Had we set the closet flange per your interpretation on a job we just wrapped up a few months back, where the wall covering was 3/4" OSB for sheer, two layers of 5/8" sheetrock for fireproofing, 1/4" of tilebacker board, 3/8" of thinset and 3/4" slab marble, the closet flange would have netted 8-5/8" from center of flange to finished wall surface.

[speedball1]

Rough-in specs for a W/C are *always* the distance from the face of the finished wall to the center of the closet flange

I've got a question for you growler. You're out there roughing in a slab. You establish your walls put your strings out. The rough calls for a bathroom on the slab. No finished wall here. Just dirt and the strings that you laid out.
How far off the strings do you center the closet bend? Just curious Steve. I've never know anything to be absolute in plumbing except: $hit won't flow uphill, cold water's on the right, paydays on Friday, the boss's a sonofa and never bite your nails after you snake out a sewer. Now those are my absolutes. Have they changed so much in the twenty years since I've retired? Cheers an giggles, Tom

[natalieblueeyes]

How does the plumber know what the finished wall is going to be? Whether it is just sheetrock or tile or something else?

I am guessing that the answer is that the plumber asks -- but our plumber never asked, so maybe that is our problem. We just have sheetrock.

Natalie

[speedball1]

How does the plumber know what the finished wall is going to be? whether it is just sheetrock or tile or something else?

I am guessing that the answer is that the plumber asks -- but our plumber never asked, so maybe that is our problem. We just have sheetrock.

Natalie

Hey Natalie,
When we break ground for a rough in we have a set of plans with the fixture layout. That's it. The builder's not around to ask. We figure 12" off the string will give us 11 1/2 inches from the finished wall. Cheers, Tom

[iamgrowler]

I've got a question for you growler. You're out there roughing in a slab. You establish your walls put your strings out. The rough calls for a bathroom on the slab. No finished wall here. Just dirt and the strings that you laid out.
How far off the strings do you center the closet bend? Just curious Steve. I've never know anything to be absolute in plumbing except: $hit won't flow uphill, cold water's on the right, paydays on Friday, the boss's a sonofa and never bite your nails after you snake out a sewer. Now those are my absolutes. Have they changed so much in the twenty years since I've retired? Cheers an giggles, Tom

Well, for starters, I don't lay the strings out, I leave that to the builder or the framing crew -- And if there is any indecision in how the walls will lay out, I pull off the job until a firm decision has been made.

I also use 4x3 closet bends for groundwork, which allow me to scoot the closet bolts forward or backward a good 3/4" should the need arise.

[Milo Dolezal]

Quoted from : iamgrowler
That is incorrect, Milo. Rough-in specs for a W/C are *always* the distance from the face of the finished wall to the center of the closet flange.
There are far too many variables involved in wall coverings and finishes for a rough framing distance to be called out.

I have to disagree with you. From my experience, 99.9 % of all toilets are roughed-in at 12" at center - and from the rough framing. Period. At least that's how it used to be in the last 32 years I have been running and laying out my jobs. ( I personally lay-out over 500 bathrooms a year ). Even Unified Plumbing Code book lists toilet installation at 12" rough-in on center. To support my claim, in one of the previous commentaries, I have cut 'n' pasted description directly from Kohler, a company that manufactures Kohler Pinoir toilet, the toilet in question. They also list their toilets as 12" on center.

Now, if you rough-in toilet at 12" on center, the actual space you need is about 10 3/4"" to fit toilet and tank in. With 1/2" drywall, you have about 3/4 inch of space to install wall tile. So in many cases, plumbers get away with not checking blueprints for these special situations. Also, toilet outlet is 2" in diameter. Toilet ring is 3" of 4" in diameter. So the toilet bolts can be moved forward additional 1/2" to 3/4" to compensate for unforseen situations - like not noticing sheer wall on the interior.

Now, I have to agree with you that some special situations do exist, like sheer-walls on the interior and tile behind the toilet - but don't ask me when was the last time I run into this situation. I would not remember that... :-)

[speedball1]

Growler, I got to agree with Milo on this. 12" off the string gives ya about 11 1/2" off a finished wall.

Well, for starters, I don't lay the strings out, I leave that to the builder or the framing crew --

As the "plumber in charge" you don't establish your own walls on a rough in? What happens when they miss a wall? Do you take the heat for not doing it yourself? I don't know how it goes down in Seattle but in Florida when we rough in a single family dwelling we're given a set of plans that we then lay out our drainage and pull our material. We hop in our truck and proced to the job site where we are greeted by a foundation with two or three course of blocks holding back the fill dirt and that's all. No builder waiting to lay out the job for us since we're expected to be experienced enough to do it ourselves. Since you don't lay out the job yourself do you dig the trenches yourself or is that done for you also. Pretty soft for you guys out west. Missed a wall and put the potty in the living room? Hey! Ain't my fault! I didn't put the strings down.
It's Ok Steve! Just feeling frisky this AM and having a bit of fun. But seriously, you really don't establish your own walls? Regards, Tom

[massplumber2008]

Growler, I have never heard of anyone convincing a framing company to lay out field lines for the plumber... ever! And who would want them, too..? I wouldn't trust such an important job to anyone but myself... why I am the plumber... not them? If you were told later that you missed every wall in the building...who is legally responsible...you or the framing crew you suckered into doing it?? Nope... thinking I'd rather trust me with that then them!

However, to jump in on this argument over rough in toilet numbers I do have to agree that all specification sheets... JUST LIKE THE ONE YOU POSTED... clearly show that a toilet rough is measured from the finish wall!

Just look at the picture you posted as an example and we can all see that you have 1" of space from finished wall to the back of the toilet...

With all due respect to everyone's experience here... Is anyone here telling me that the picture is suggesting that that is the ROUGH FRAMED WALL in that picture..? Just because we discuss a 12" rough in does not mean it is from the rough frame... means it is the rough in number to install the toilet from the finish wall. Further, when we rough in a lavatory drain at 18" to center off the floor... is it from the rough floor.. or the finish floor..? How about the water pipe... from the rough floor.. or from the finish floor..?

And just to be super creepy I called 18004KOHLER and confirmed with technical department that all measurements in these spec. sheets are from the FINISHED wall.... you guys had me questioning myself though... I swear!

So Natalie...if you are at 12 and 1/8" from the finish wall to the center of the toilet flange and you have 1.5" of space between finish wall and tank then you need to have a plumber come in and reset the toilet BACK toward the wall!! There should be enough room in the flange to slide the unit back to within 1" maximium!

Let me know what you think!!

And one last note... different places teach people differently... however, these spec. sheets are there so we can all agree on one thing... 12" rough in is always from the finish wall! If you choose to rough your toilets tighter than spec. number so be it (by the way.. I rough tighter myself... ;) )! I just wanted to point out that that spec. sheet is an absolute everywhere!! And for the sake of others reading this in the future we really should ALL be able to agree to that!

Thanks for reading all.

MARK

[speedball1]

You guys can go by the book but I'm a old timey plumber , I go by results.
Natalie asked a good question.

How does the plumber know what the finished wall is going to be? Whether it is just sheetrock or tile or something else

If I factered in the average finished dry wall it would work out to 12 5/8ths" off the string which would put the tank out 1 1/8th" off the wall. At 11 1/2 " off the finished wall my tanks set a average of 1/2" or less off the wall and that's been good enough in my area. We've put in houdreds of toilets with nary a complaint about the distance the tank set from the wall, and that's with a tile or drywall situation. So, Mark and Steve You're "book correct", but I bet that doesn't change Milos mesures and I know for a fact that our rough in plumbers still go 12" off the string.
Ya'all have a good one. Tom