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 Originally Posted by orange
I like drinking, as long as all in moderation, why not! |
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Yes I know Catholics drink. I went to a Catholic boarding school for 4 years. My question was addressed to those Christians who don't drink.
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Morganite,
If you look at the passages you mentioned in context you will be able to note that they are in regard to certain times of conditions when one should not drink wine. John the Baptizer could not drink or eat anything from a grape bush or vine because of the sect who had sworn himself to. Aaron priest were forbidden to drink wine before going into or while in the Tabernacle. They had to be clear headed in doing their duties there. ETC. Peace and kindness, Fred |
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Originally Posted by orange
I'm not really sure what Stony meant. Perhaps he might clarify it for us. In reference to the scripture he mentioned though, it's useful to remember that the Bible often uses foods as symbols. "Do not work for food that spoils," he told the people, "but for food that endures to eternal life" (John 6:27) Bread, for example, represents truth as well as Jesus' body given as a sacrifice in our behalf. Matthew 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. Whea is used to represent those who are approved in contrast to the weeds or tares. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Water symbolizes truth. John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. Yeast or leaven symbolizes sin or corruption, or false teaching Matthew 16:10-12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. In a like manner, wine is used symbolically and is closely associated with joy. Isaiah 24:11 There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone. Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart;... Based on this, the scripture Stony posted in which wine is mentioned, is understood by some Bible scholars to mean the joy or happiness his apostles were experiencing in being personally with Jesus and which they would not experience again until they were resurrected into heaven. BTW Not all biblical references to water, wine, bread, and so on are figurative. |
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Good post Starman, but keep in mind that some fppd and drink are not figuative as in John 6:51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
52. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53. So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. Jesus was talking about the Eucharist he was going to establish. Peace and Kindness, Fred (arcura) |
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Originally Posted by arcura
Literal and Figurative Language in the Bible ... Literal and Figurative. How to understand the language of the Bible. Jesus took bread and said, "Take and... read the words of the Bible, we are faced with a choice... Literal and Figurative Language in the Bible BTW I understand your viewpoint which is the Catholic one which understands the bread as being literally Jesus' body. But Jesus himself tells us that his words were not to be taken literally but in a spiritual way. He told this to his apostles later after people had taken offense at his words. John 6 61And Jesus having known in himself that his disciples are murmuring about this, said to them, `Doth this stumble you? 63the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life; YLT |
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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Let me pose a 'legalistic' question. If we decide that the drink at Christian communion HAS to be wine made from GRAPES, does it have to be from the same kind of grapes that made the wine that Jesus drank? Does the bread he blessed, brake, and shared have to be the same today as it was when Jesus did it? Is it the properties of the substances involved that is important, or is it the act of memorial - "Do this in remembrance of me" - that is essential? M;)RGANITE |
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Originally Posted by Morganite
Matthew 16: 6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. 11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees? 12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. Luke 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. |
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Starman,
I believe what the whole passage says... John 6: 46. Not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. 48. I am the bread of life. 49. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." 52. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53. So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." 59. This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caperna-um. 60. Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?" 61. But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? 62. Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? 63. It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64. But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. 65. And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." 66. After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him. Please Jesus did not say something like, "Hey fellows, I was just talking symbolically." No He let them walk away because he meant what he said. Note what He said to those who remained with Him. John 6: 67. Jesus said to the twelve, "Do you also wish to go away?" 68. Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69. And we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." To me it was clear that Jesus meant what he said when I was a Protestant and still is as a Catholic. Peace and kindness,:) Fred |
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Originally Posted by Starman
"I spake it not to you concerning bread [.....] Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" It was a warning against false and hypocritical teachings and had nothing to do with bread. Leaven is yeast, the raising agent that permeates the dough that will be baked into bread. By warning his disciples to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees, he was explaining how pervasive false teachings were in the church of Christ, and how such teachings would alter the nature of his church to a similar extent that leaven changes bread dough and the baked product. Jesus came from the semiheathen region of the Decapolis to the Israelite area of Magdala. "For some time He had been absent from home. He had been sought out with trustful faith in the regions of Tyre and Sidon. He had been welcomed with ready gratitude in heathen Decapolis; here, at home, He was met with the flaunt of triumphant opposition, under the guise of hypocritical zeal." In Decapolis the multitudes believed his words, rejoiced in his miracles, ate of the loaves and fishes provided by his providence, and glorified him as the God of Israel. Back among his own he found "all the self-satisfied hypocrisies of a decadent religion drawn up in array to stop His path!" (Farrar, Life of Christ, p. 376.) There among his own he was assailed by the rulers of the people, who, under the guise of demanding a sign from heaven, proclaimed their utter disbelief in and complete rejection of his Messianic claims. Thus the issue was squarely set. It is the doctrine of the Almighty that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God; that salvation comes by him and him alone; that he has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel; and that all men everywhere must believe in him, repent of their sins, be baptized in water, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and work the works of righteousness, or they can in nowise enter into the kingdom of God. It was the doctrine of the Pharisees—and all who joined with them in opposing Jesus—that salvation came by the law of Moses alone; that the man Jesus was a deluded fanatic without divine power; that he was a rabble-rouser, an anarchist, a subverter of all that was great and good in their traditions; that he was a blasphemer worthy of death; that he performed miracles by the power of the prince of devils, yea, that he was even Beelzebub Incarnate; and that he should be rejected, cast out, and stoned to death as one who prophesied falsely and led the people away from their ancient moorings. And so Jesus, after deriding the sign-seekers as wicked and adulterous, chose to leave them and minister and heal among other people. Thanks to their darkened minds, their perverted consciences, and their stony hearts, he would go elsewhere to preach. "He did not press His mercies on those who rejected them. As in after days His nation were suffered to prefer their robber and their murderer to the Lord of Life, so now the Galileans were suffered to keep their Pharisees and lose their Christ." (Farrar, pp. 376-77.) He and his disciples set sail, leaving Magdala for the area of Bethsaida-Julias on the north and east of the sacred sea. Their departure was made in haste, and the disciples failed to take food for their sustenance. Apparently after they landed at their destination, Jesus—ever anxious to strengthen them spiritually; concerned lest any of them be tainted in any degree by the damning doctrine of his enemies; and using their failure to bring bread as a teaching aid—took occasion to raise a warning voice. "Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees," he said. Mark tells us that he also warned them against "the leaven of Herod." Those same disciples, at Jacob's Well, had missed the true meaning of his statement that he had meat to eat that they knew not of. But a short time back the metaphors about eating the bread which came down from heaven had failed to find quick and easy lodgment in their souls; and yet in the future they would miss the deep meaning of the expression about Lazarus sleeping and needing to be awakened. At this stage of their spiritual development, metaphors seemed to give them some trouble. They therefore "reasoned among themselves, saying, He said this because we have taken no bread." Jesus, perceiving how foolish and spiritually immature they were, responded with a severe and stern rebuke. "O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?" he said. "Perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?" "How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?" Only then, after such a rebuke, was Matthew able to conclude: "Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees." And, of course, of the Herodians and every other sect, party, cult, or denomination, for all such are not of God, and have not the fulness of the gospel, which alone sets forth the doctrine of God. "Leaven was one of the very commonest types of sin, and especially of insidious and subterranean sin." (Farrar, p. 379.) Leaven—the fermenting, defiling, contaminating influence of those who opposed him! Leaven—the debasing, damning doctrines of those who would one day cause his death! Leaven—the views and feelings of those who were anti-Christ and who sought to keep others from accepting him as their Messiah and Deliverer! The leaven of the Pharisees, Sadducees, Herodians, scribes—of all who believed and preached false doctrine—such leaven was evil. They must beware lest they be tainted in the slightest degree. Literally, leaven is a substance, any substance, that produces fermentation, as for instance yeast which causes bread to rise. Figuratively, leaven is any element which, by its fermenting, spreading influence, affects groups of people so that they believe and act in particular ways. Thus to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees is to shun their false doctrines, their concept that the Messiah must prove his claim to divinity by signs, for instance. Similarly, today, the warning is to beware of the leaven of any group whose false doctrines and antichrist philosophies work to keep men from accepting the truths of the gospel of Christ. He likened the Pharisees unto white-washed sepulchres, beautiful to look at but full of defilement, "full of dead men's bones." The aristocratic Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection of the dead. M;)RGANITE |
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If you were so strongly convinced that the bread could be eatened in any form chosen then why feign not to know and ask for an explanation?
BTW I never said Jesus was not speaking metaphorically. Jesus used the bread as a symbol of his body. The bread used during the Lord's supper was unleavened because unleavened bread was required for the passover and Jesus celebrated the passover as required by the Mosaic Law prior to his instituting the Lord's Supper. Originally Posted by Morganite
Sorry I caused a misunderstanding. I should have brought out that the decision to view leavened bread as representing sin is also supported by the Hebrew scriptures. Actually, that the unleavened bread represents Jesus' sinlessness a generally accepted. SYMBOLIC MEANINGS OF EGYPT AND LEAVENING... of Christ, it seems logical that the unleavened bread eaten during the original Passover also represents purity and sinlessness. Jesus the Bread... Unleavened bread is always symbolic... b5w48 Excerpt: Christ the Unleavened Bread We know from the writings in the New Testament that the unleavened bread to be eaten during the Passover of the gospel age represents Jesus Christ's sinless body as the Passover lamb of God. Because the unleavened bread of the Passover during the gospel age represents the purity and sinlessness of Christ, it seems logical that the unleavened bread eaten during the original Passover also represents purity and sinlessness... The eating of the bread and lamb was also prophetic and symbolic of the new Passover ritual in which unleavened bread is eaten as a symbol of the sinless body of Christ (Lk.22:26; 1.Cor.11:23-24). "You shall therefore sacrifice the Passover to the Lord your God, of the flock of the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name. You shall eat no leavened bread with it;" (Deut.16:2-3 KJV). The Israelites left Egypt (symbolic sin) without leavened bread (symbolic sin)... The unleavened bread also pointed toward the time when God would make a new agreement with national Israel and the rest of humanity. Under the new agreement, unleavened bread is to be eaten as a reminder that those under this agreement have put away sin and must remain sinless before God the Father and Jesus Christ. See Rom.6:1-16; 1.Cor.5:6-8; Jn.3:6-10. By B. L. Cocherell, file b5w48 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- BTW Yes, Jesus was speaking metaphorically by using leaven as a symbol of hypocrisy and false teachings. He could have very well used another symbol but chose leaven as had other writers before him to represent something negative. "....They are all adulterers as an oven heated by the baker, who ceases from the raising after he has kneaded the dough until it be leavened" (Hos.7:1-4 KJV). A Christian View of Passover Week The unleavened bread eaten at Passover signified freedom from sin. It represents Yahshua's (Jesus') sinlessness as well... A Christian View of Passover Week Exodus 11 - 12 -- The Passover Meal Jeannie Cole's ladies' class lecture describes and explains the Passover meal... symbolic of the hope of freedom that enabled their ancestors to withstand the bitterness of slavery. Matzah - the unleavened bread... Jesus is our example of perfection and sinlessness... Exodus 11 - 12 -- The Passover Meal But of course you are entitled to your opinion as well. |
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Originally Posted by Starman
M:(RGANITE Originally Posted by Starman
M |
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Originally Posted by Morganite
Actually, most people I encounter on the web are intolerant of my views because some of my views are not in the mainstream of what the majority of people considering themselves Christian believe to be irrefutable truth and based on infallible authority. Some even disagree with my views on tolerance of other people's views as I have expressed them here on this forum and prefer to believe that God is as intolerant of others' views as they are. But then again, they too have a right to their intolerance as I have a right to disagree with it. |
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Originally Posted by Starman
:) M |
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Morganite,
I find you post interesting, But I refer the simple answer as presented in the bible. It was because of a command of God. The Hebrews left Egypt so fast that they had to bake the bread before it could rise. God instructed the Hebrews to have a special Passover celebration each year there after and unleavened bread was a part of that. As recorded here: Exodus 12: 8. They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it. That is the reason Jesus used unleavened bread during the Passover meal (Seder) That I believe is the reason for it. Peace and kindness,:) :) :) Fred |
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Understood Sir, but the question is about Jesus saying beware the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducee;, meaning their doctrine, not their food, because Pharisees and Sadducees did not eat leavened bread at the Pesach feast, so they were not being warned to keep clear of eating what they ate, but of believing the things that they taught that were not true, and of behaving in ways that did not have God's love as their primary motivation.
M:)RGANITE |
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Morganite,
Your point is well made and taken. Thanks, Fred (arcura) |
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Originally Posted by Morganite
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Originally Posted by orange
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Hello, this is Ernest Norman Paquin author of "Find Me, Eve". Here is a quote of mine; "They say Betrayal is the worst sin, my guess is; if you haven't sinned any worse than that then have you really sinned at all..." The biggest act of Betrayal not yet committed was aggressively said to me by a fellow American, and what this person said to me was ; "he would kill the Son of God if he had a reason..." meaning the first chance he gets. Terrorists haven't even been documented as saying or planning that and they say God is great. plenty of Americans agree with some of their words but not any of their actions. I believe the majority of people in this world which numbers in the Billions would protect God's son as well as our own children would be a great humanitarian concern. I know for certain we will not let anything happen to God's son or even our own. I know one thing for certain and that is; If some foolish, cruel and ignorant people would kill the Son of God the first chance they get then what do you think they are capable of doing to us who won't? I emphasize once again; "There is no Devil, just people who practice wickedness. I would like to add another quote of mine aimed at those wannabe Christkillers, and that is; "Vengeance in this world starts to come around the moment you fail to regret what you did... " |
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