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sheahasu · Jun 14, 2008, 01:05 PM

:confused: I need to run wiring from my house to my fish pond. I currently have an outlet that is wired on its own circuit from the previous owner's hot tub. The wire is 12/2 and feeds the outlet and an exhaust fan. The cable runs up the wall on the outside of the house and then feeds into the wall for the outlet and fan. I want to tap into this circuit. I thought I had it figured out, but it was a late night when I was diagramming, and now, several weeks later, what I had figured out isn't making sense! Too many pigtails, connectors, etc... Here's what I want to do:

I want to tap into the existing circuit. Instead of one outlet in the house, I want to change it to a an outlet and two single pole switches. The switches would run to the outlets by the pond. There I want to have 2 GFCI outlets, each one controlled from a switch inside. Here's a rough sketch:

Any help would be appreciated!

hkstroud · Jun 14, 2008, 02:58 PM

..

Stratmando · Jun 14, 2008, 03:05 PM

Excellent info and diagram from Hk as usual, You could have a single GFI inside Before Switches(Next to) To protect both with 1 GFI, instead of 2 outside.

westnlas · Jun 14, 2008, 03:12 PM

I looked at the diagram and it looks OK. I am assuming there is a jumper bar to both switches for a single black (hot wire) connection. The common looked consistent and the hot makes the switch loop. Perhaps, you aren't wired exactly like the diagram ? Are you sure the black wire coming into the outlet is hot all the time ? It might be part of a loop and switched off.

sheahasu · Jun 14, 2008, 11:28 PM

HK, your diagram is quite easy to understand. However, I think maybe I didn't make myself clear. The first diagram is the currently existing outlet. The second diagram of switches and outlets is what I want to do, which incorporates the outlet and switches together, thus having any wires from diagram one to diagram two doesn't make sense. Basically, the first drawing is just to show what I already have--that outlet is hopefully going to be incorporated into the switch/outlet group shown in the second drawing, but it needs to always be hot and still feed up to the exhaust fan as well. Which I guess really means, just ignore the first drawing altogether! :)

Also, is the red wire a second hot wire? Is it just a jumper?

Stratmando: The outlet inside is just regular household outlet, which is why I don't have it as a GFI. The two outside outlets, however, besides just being outside, will also be used for pond connections, which is why I have them GFI.

Westnlas: Since the wiring HK so kindly and clearly diagrammed includes an extra outlet, it's hard to respond exactly. However, the wiring to the existing outlet is currently hot all the time, and I want it to stay that way. It's the outside outlets I want to switch. It just seemed like a good idea so that I wouldn't actually have to go outside every time I wanted to shut off a pump or lights. Not so important now, but in the winter, when I sometimes have to temporarily shut down something, or turn on my de-icer, etc, it would be nice to know I can stay toasty warm and just flip a switch!

Stratmando · Jun 15, 2008, 06:58 AM

Shea, You can have in the Second box, the GFI fed from first box and will be constant hot, then the Load side of GFI Neutral go to pump and light Neutral.
Hot from the load side goes to stacked switch with tab intact on hotside, the red and black from switches goes to pump and light.

hkstroud · Jun 15, 2008, 07:03 AM

Is this it?

hkstroud · Jun 15, 2008, 07:45 AM

Or this

Stratmando · Jun 15, 2008, 08:51 AM

The inside Receptacle Can Be GFI, Instead of 2 outside GFI's, Better protected inside.
In all the boxes I would connect all Neutrals together and have pigtail connect to each receptacle. Safer, and Code.

westnlas · Jun 15, 2008, 06:37 PM

Well I guess you can configure it in many ways that will work OK. The only potential problem I can see is the possibility of overloading the existing circuit by adding the additional outlets and fixtures. But you will know soon enough if the breaker keeps tripping. Good luck and it sounds like a good project.

sheahasu · Jun 16, 2008, 01:32 AM

Sorry for the delay in responding. It's Father's Day, so I was low woman on the totem pole! Here's a revised diagram of what I'm trying to do. Would it be easier to show you all a diagram of how I think it should look, and have you see if it's right? I'm about to the point where I think I should forget the switches altogether, and just keep the existing outlet and wire the pond outlets always hot. The only real purpose to the switches is laziness on my part come winter!

Stratmando · Jun 16, 2008, 06:06 AM

Shea, in HK's drawing, the red and black are from the 2 switches and go to the 2 outside GFI recepticles.
You don't have to put a single GFI in house as that is how it always was? The supply house will appreciate the sale of an extra GFI, plus you have the extra money?

sheahasu · Jun 16, 2008, 07:14 AM

I have an extra GFI, that's no issue.

Stratmando · Jun 16, 2008, 10:24 AM

Well Just use HK's Diagram and install the 2 GFI's in the double box outside. Intermatic makes a Weather resistant clear "Bubble" cover that allows cover to be closed with cord plugged in.

sheahasu · Jun 16, 2008, 01:04 PM

HK's diagrams are nice and easy to follow, but I think there is still a problem. The latest diagram shows two 3-way switches, but I actually have a combination, two single-pole switch. So, I've attempted to do a diagram that shows what I originally figured out a few weeks ago in the wee hours of the morning. Pretend that the gray wire is actually white!

So, I have the incoming power to the outlet, which I have split, pigtailed, and connected to the fan as well (it has it's own on/off switch built in).

Next, I have connected the hot wire from the bottom screw of the outlet to the top of the switch. That should provide power to the switch itself

From there I have a jumper going to the top hot screw of one of the outlets, with a jumper to the bottom hot screw. That is to switch the outlet.

Then from the bottom hot screw of the switch, I have a wire running to the second outlet, with a jumper from it's top to bottom hot screws. That's to switch the second outlet. (Only on the diagram, it looks like I created a sort of pigtail/jumper. I wasn't paying attention. It should look just like the other outlet)

Repeat everything for the white side.

When I'm looking at it now, weeks later, I keep thinking I can't have a jumper on the same outlet, it needs to go from one to another. So I think that's where I'm messing it up. But every time I look at doing a jumper between outlets instead, it seems like that will keep the switches from working properly!

AAUUGGGHHH! If only I could find my old papers...

Stratmando · Jun 16, 2008, 01:49 PM

If they are both on same circuit you only need one neutral from switches to GFI's.
I see the Neutrals are going to the switch, they don't, only to recepticles neutral.
You need a hot to switches(side with jumping tab).
HK's first drawing looks like what you want. What seems strange about his drawing? Just have GFI's instead of recepticles and you're set.
Don't know where 3 ways came into this.

sheahasu · Jun 16, 2008, 07:26 PM

O.k. HK's first diagram shows an extra outlet, and the last one shows 3-way switches. Looking at those and the ones in-between, here's my latest schematic:

Will this work? Now, keeping in mind that the pond is about 70 feet away from the outlet, so I'll be burying the cable, does this mean I have to run a 70 foot jumper (red wire)along with the regular 12/2 that I'm using?

Also, the GFIs don't have a tab like regular outlets to break off for being able to switch one part without the other. However, since I'm using a switch for each outlet set, as opposed to trying to have one set with one switched and one hot, I'm guessing that the tab is a moot point anyway.

westnlas · Jun 16, 2008, 07:36 PM

You will need to run three wires to the pond. A common and one for each of the two switch loops. Otherwise, everything will be on a single switch. I am assuming that you will add a ground at the pond and not back to the house outlet ? You can run a single 12/3 w ground that would work.

Stratmando · Jun 16, 2008, 07:42 PM

Looks like you've got it. I would pigtail neutrals and not depend on device to carry on.
A GFI in the house could allow a duplex receptacle with hot tab removed, each could be GFI protected, Since you have the extra GFI and have the Correct drawing now I would do
It that way.
We know the Grounds are understood but eliminated for clarity. Take Care

hkstroud · Jun 16, 2008, 08:28 PM

OK, we'll do it your way.

Notes.
The type of switch you apparently want to use, two switches on a single strap is not a 3-way switch. You said you wanted to be able to turn the outlets on and off from both inside and a outside. To do that you must use two 3-way switches.
It’s been a long time since I looked at that type of switch but I believe there is only one screw on the input side of the switch. You supply power to the switch and it comes out the top of other side is the top switch is on. Power comes out the bottom of the other side if the bottom switch is on.

You do not interrupt (switch) the neutral (white wire), you always switch the hot side.

Take a look at the screws on the side of an outlet. Notice that a small metal strap connects them. When you connect a wire to one screw you are automatically connected to the other. You do not have to connect a wire to each screw. You can however, use the second screw to attach a wire to go to the next outlet. That way you do not have to make pig tails.

Note that the neutral wire coming from the power source is connected to the neutral going to the fan and pig tailed to the top screw of the first outlet. The bottom screw of the first outlet is connected to the bottom screw of the second outlet; the top screw of the second outlet is connected to the top screw of the third outlet. In the drawing there does not appear to be a continuous path here, but there is; the connection between the screws. Is through the metal strap on the side of the outlet. The same thing applies to the hot side. When you make a connection to either screw both the top and bottom halves of the outlets are connected.