[Allheart]

That is a correct statement. But that brings us to those who do all that "judging" ...
It seems to me that the majority of those showing so much hatred and intolerance all around them are conservative strict Christians.
What drives these people to do that? Can we blamed that on the Bible ? Or on the believers themselves ?
Again - staying within the confinement of the question - why are so many conservative Christians so full of hatred and intolerance against homosexuality?
Nobody is telling or asking them to become gay, is it not? And where in the Bible are the scriptures involving homosexuality that instruct those who believe the Bible to be God's words to show so much hatred and intolerance for gays? As far as I know the Bible says that the "final judgment" is done by God ...

:rolleyes:

It's sad to call those, or identify those, who demonstrate hatred as "Christians". There is nothing Christ like about hatred. It is said, there will be false prophets, so we do need to be aware of that and even careful of that.

[Credendovidis]

It's sad to call those, or identify those, who demonstrate hatred as "Christians". There is nothing Christ like about hatred. It is said, there will be false prophets, so we do need to be aware of that and even careful of that.

So you acknowledge with your reply that such people who show so much aggression and intolerance against homosexuals can not base nor validate that attitude on the Bible, i.e. it is based on their own personal opinions and views?

Is it not that true Christians should spread "the word", not only by using empty words, but by their own example?
And does that not indicate that all those who carry that apparent inner need for hatred and intolerance for those with different views with them are not true Christians?

:rolleyes:
·

[Allheart]

First, I only share my thoughts that represent what I believe.

What I will acknowledge is that any form of hatred demonstrated, could never be tied back to the bible, in my opinion.

Those that shout, scream and voice hatred, I would never question the love they have for Christ in their hearts, because I do not know. I do believe that their behavior is not Christian like, is not Christ like. Personally, and this may be awful to say, but those that
Stand outside abortion clinics, hollering, screaming, calling people murders, or on street corners, spreading hatred, I, in my heart, feel that something may not be completely right with them, and again, can not be tied back to the bible.

I agree with you 100% - the best way to bring someone to God's loving arms, is not by
Harsh hateful words, but by loving quiet example.

I will also say, that many times, most times, my actions, my words, are not Christ like - are a poor example of God's love - but I have immense love in my heart for Christ, that's why I could never judge anothers love for our Lord.

If Jesus, nailed to the cross, with a crown of thorns, after being brutually beaten, can raise His loving eyes to God, and say, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". How could I, a sinner, ever turn my eyes, my heart, be judgemental of anyone.

[N0help4u]

It is not that Christians can not base upon the Bible that homosexuality is wrong.
They can not base their hatred upon the Bible.
The problem is the hatred. The Bible says gluttony is a sin. The Bible says arrogance is a sin. Adultery is a sin, lying is a sin, hatred is a sin and the list goes on.
But the problem is that people put sin on a scale and they have homosexuality up there with rape, murder and child molesting. They say do not judge others leave it up to God. They will even say a rapist in jail has a chance to repent, yet treat homosexuality as a special no win sin.

[Allheart]

It is not that Christians can not base upon the Bible that homosexuality is wrong.
The problem is the hatred. The Bible says gluttony is a sin. The Bible says arrogance is a sin. Adultery is a sin, lying is a sin and the list goes on.
But the problem is that people put sin on a scale and they have homosexuality up there with rape, murder and child molesting.

So well said - and that's where it all goes so wrong and causes so much pain for so many.

[Credendovidis]

Allheart and N0help4u : excellent reactions !

:)
·

[margog85]

Yes, those that want to re-write the meaning of the bible do question it and attempt to justify it, but it is simply not true. This is one of the issues we have against them, they are trying to force thier beliefs on the church

I don't necessarily agree with you on that- I'm not saying it's impossible, but I really think that there is plenty of room for error in translation- are you saying that it's completely impossible that translations could be incorrect or that there could be even an ounce of human influence in the way in which the Bible has been translated over time? Because a lot of the debate on the accuracy of translation regarding the mention of homosexuality in the Bible, among other things, is among Biblical scholars as well, from what I've read- do you think they have some sort of hidden agenda, or couldn't it just be an attempt to get to the root of things and see what the meaning intended by the original text actually was?

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone to believe something they don't- but maybe to look at their belief and see why it is they believe it to be sure they really do, when given all the information. I'm not presuming to know it all- just putting the possibility out there.

[margog85]

And AllHeart, did you ever hear the St. Francis of Assisi quote 'Preach the Gospel where ever you go, and if you must, even use words'? I thought of that when reading through your posts and thought you might like it. It's one of my own personal favorites... =)

[Synnen]

I think the reason that so many think of homosexuality as a horrible, evil, up there with stoning Christ sin is just this: Many homosexuals refuse to "repent" the sin, and "commit the sin again" without true repentence--Nor do I personally believe they should have to.

Like I said--I was trying to find the Biblical justification of what I see (again, this is MY belief) as intolerance and hatred.

Some of it, I believe, has to do with interpretation. Heck, we have different people interpreting Shakespeare in different ways, and Shakespeare wrote at LEAST a thousand years after the Bible was written. Some of the issue is the translation of the Bible from one language to another--and then to another, in some cases. Some of the issue is that some words just do not translate well, meaning or definition. If you asked 10 people today what the word "cool" means, you'd probably get 10 different definitions.

So... I haven't had time to read any of the verses provided yet in my King James Version here, but hopefully at some point this weekend I will be able to.

I really appreciate people providing the Books, chapters and verses for me.

[Allheart]

And AllHeart, did you ever hear the St. Francis of Assisi quote 'Preach the Gospel where ever you go, and if you must, even use words'? I thought of that when reading through your posts and thought you might like it. It's one of my own personal favorites... =)

Hi Marg,

No I actually never did hear that. I like it as well - and it does help me out with understanding. Thanks :)

[Allheart]

Synn -

I just found this website - that addresses a lot on this topic and speaks about, just what you said interpretations. I find it interesting:
Bible Verses on Homosexuality - What the Bible Says - Christian Teens - Homosexuality

[De Maria]

First, I only share my thoughts that represent what I believe.

What I will acknowledge is that any form of hatred demonstrated, could never be tied back to the bible, in my opinion.

Those that shout, scream and voice hatred, I would never question the love they have for Christ in their hearts, because I do not know. I do beleive that their behavior is not Christian like, is not Christ like. Personally, and this may be awful to say, but those that
stand outside abortion clinics, hollering, screaming, calling people murders, or on street corners, spreading hatred, I, in my heart, feel that something may not be completely right with them, and again, can not be tied back to the bible.

I agree with you 100% - the best way to bring someone to God's loving arms, is not by
harsh hateful words, but by loving quiet example.

I will also say, that many times, most times, my actions, my words, are not Christ like - are a poor example of God's love - but I have immense love in my heart for Christ, that's why I could never judge anothers love for our Lord.

If Jesus, nailed to the cross, with a crown of thorns, after being brutually beaten, can raise His loving eyes to God, and say, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". How could I, a sinner, ever turn my eyes, my heart, be judgemental of anyone.

Apparently this discussion has shifted from "where in the Bible are the scriptures on homosexuality" to whether Christians should denounce sinful behavior.

Let me ask you , do you consider denouncing sin to be hateful?

Matthew 23 14 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: because you devour the houses of widows, praying long prayers. For this you shall receive the greater judgment.

Galatians 1 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.

Galatians 3 1 O senseless Galatians, who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been set forth, crucified among you?

You might want to consider that one of the reasons Jesus was crucified is because He denounced sin.

Romans 8 17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God, and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Allheart]

No DeMaria -

Spreading God's word and love, NOOOO I do not consider hateful, quite the opposite. It is a loving thing to do.

What I meant by hateful, is those that scream terrible names, condemn with such hateful vigor, that's what I meant.

Relax and try and realize that there are good people in this world, trying to make a loving difference.

[De Maria]

No DeMaria -

Spreading God's word and love, NOOOO I do not consider hateful, quite the opposite. It is a loving thing to do.

What I meant by hateful, is those that scream terrible names, condemn with such hateful vigor, that's what I meant.

Relax and try and realize that there are good people in this world, trying to make a loving difference.

I'm relaxed. What makes you think I'm not?

But I'm also trying to make sense of what you are saying.

Thanks for the clarification. As I understand your NOOOO. You believe that people should condemn sin. Wonderful!

One more clarification please. Do you consider that practicing homosexuality, that is sex with a person of the same sex, is sinful? Or do you go against Christian, Catholic and Bible teaching in that regard?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

Apparently this discussion has shifted from "where in the Bible are the scriptures on homosexuality" to whether or not Christians should denounce sinful behavior.

Let me ask you , do you consider denouncing sin to be hateful?

Let me ask you, do you consider Rev Phelp going around to soldiers funerals with anti-gay sins the right thing to do?
There IS a difference BIG between being hateful and winning people over through Christian love.

[Allheart]

I'm relaxed. What makes you think I'm not?

But I'm also trying to make sense of what you are saying.

Thanks for the clarification. As I understand your NOOOO. You believe that people should condemn sin. Wonderful!

One more clarification please. Do you consider that practicing homosexuality, that is sex with a person of the same sex, is sinful? Or do you go against Christian, Catholic and Bible teaching in that regard?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Because you come off harsh and judgemental and borderline unkind. If I don't post the way you like - you refer to me as a hyprocrite.

Yes, in reading the bible passages, I do believe that homosexuality is a sin but it gives no one the right, and I am not saying that you are, it gives no one the right to stand over top of anyone, and hurt their very soul.

[De Maria]

Let me ask you, do you consider Rev Phelp going around to soldiers funerals with anti-gay sins the right thing to do?
There IS a difference BIG between being hateful and winning people over through Christian love.

Rev Phelps? I've never heard of him.

Anti-gay sins? Do you mean that he promotes that people should harm gays? Or does he preach against violence towards gays?

In either case, my message is clear. I believe and follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. The Church teaches that homosexuality, the practice of sex between people of the same gender, is sinful. The Church preaches that all people should repent of their sins and embrace the teachings of Jesus Christ.

The Church also teaches that attacking anyone, gay or straight, is a sin. Therefore, if any person, be he Christian or not, is either physically or even verbally attacking gay people, should also repent of that sin and embrace the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[N0help4u]

He holds protests and screams hate speech against gays (basically so he gets media attention).

Westboro Baptist Church Home Page

To me I think would I hate my child and openly condemn them if they were gay or would I try and love them and pray for them

[De Maria]

Because you come off harsh and judgemental and borderline unkind. If I don't post the way you like - you refer to me as a hyprocrite.

Are you referring to my pm to you? I don't remember calling you a hypocrite, although I do remember quoting a Scripture passage with that word in it.

And I also remember that I ended that message with something around these lines:
Consider this a loving admonition from a brother in Christ. If I have misunderstood your post, please explain it to me.


If you have taken that message or series of messages which we exchanged, in the wrong spirit, so be it.

Yes, in reading the bible passages, I do believe that homosexuality is a sin

Thank God.

but it gives no one the right, and I am not saying that you are,

Thank you. Because I'm not.

it gives no one the right to stand over top of anyone, and hurt their very soul.

Is anyone in this forum doing so? Who? And if no one is doing so, why do you bring it up?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Synnen]

Oh for heaven's sake.

I did NOT want another thread with a debate. I deliberately posted this away from that thread with the debate.

Would a mod please close this thread, please? I got the info I needed, and I don't want another 300 post thread that debates essentially the same thing as the LAST post about homosexuality.

I just wanted to know what the verses were in the Bible.

Jeesh.