[phildebenham]

What an incredably bigotted statement.
So basically what you are saying is you have no respect for other religions other than Christian !
What an amazing narrow minded and puritanical outlook on life.

Curlyben, Need Karma, Orange, CaptainForest, and Scott Gem,

Why is it that you reject my beliefs out of hand and them call me narrow minded and bigotted? Christianity is a real to me as is the Pacific Ocean. If you don't believe there is a Pacific Ocean because you've never been there I would still respect you but I would not respect your viewpoint. I grew up on the beach and spent a lot of time in those waters. I spent a couple of years on a ship in the Navy. I know there is a Pacific Ocean. I can't prove that to you since we only have the internet with which we can communicate, but I can tell you that I have touched it and know its real. The same is true with Jesus. He has touched my life in such a real way, such a holy way, that I know He is real in the same way I know the Pacific Ocean is real.

You call me incredibly biggoted because I accept no other religion other than Christianity, but that is what Christ taught. "I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father but through me." That is what Christianity is all about. I am a Christian. Having respect for religions that teach contrary to the direct teachings of Jesus would make me a hypocrite. That is what you are asking me to do... compromise my faith... and that I will not do.

You seem to be confusing, in my humble opinion, respect for a belief or a belief system, with respect of an individual. I assure you that I respect each one of you at least as much as you respect each other. I also respect your right to believe whatever you choose, but I may not respect those beliefs. Each one of you does the same. Were it not so you would not be so angry at me for my beliefs.

With all love and respect,

Phil Debenham

[Fr_Chuck]

Christianity is basically the only true relgion, and no as Chrsitians we do not accept another faith as having any saving value. It can teach moral values, it can help them perhaps live to be a better person. But it is a false teaching with no value to the immortal soul and being.

Ane yes we do love all people and wish they had the blessings of the faith that we have. I really feel sorrow and loss for all of those that die without coming to know Christ as their Lord and Savior.

As for as respect, while not having read all of the prevoius posts, we can and do respect the person and even the fact that he is trying to follow a man developed religion. We can even respect the fact that they really believe they have a valid faith. But in the end no we can not and do not as a Chrsitian accept their faith or teachings as having any real value to salvation.

Can a Buddhist that follows their religion live a peaceful and fulfiling life, of course, could they be a good neighbor or even a good boy scout leader,
The same with all the other religions, but as a belief system unless it is based on Christ it is just merely a useless teachings in the time of eternity.

And no I am not afraid to speak the truth, no matter how society and esp the United States and esp Canada has tried to quiet the words of truth.

And agreeing with Phil, I understand as Chrsit did that many will never come to find his truth, but equal respect for the Christian faith is not given by most others.

[phildebenham]

See Phil, its actually the reverse. What it boils down to is that your beliefs are such that you cannot respect anyone else's beliefs. Your beliefs require you to show arrogance, disrespect, intolerance and closedmindeness to others. If those are your beliefs, then, you are right I can't and won't respect them. But the reason is because you won't offer me the same respect I am willing to offer you.

Scott, I feel as though my communication skills must be lacking, for you clearly do not understand me. I respect you Scott. I respect your right to believe anything you wish. If, however, your spiritual beliefs conflict with those of Jesus, that is with the belief system I hold as true, then you and I would disagree on that subject. Since your beliefs were in direct conflict with mine, you would not (and do not) respect my beliefs. That does not offend me, it is to be expected. If your beliefs are in conflict with mine then you cannot continue to hold them while respecting what I believe. Therefore you do not respect what I believe, and that is a very logical response. That doesn't mean that you do not respect me or my right to embrace Christ. Neither do I disrespect you or your right to believe what ever it is you believe. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? You, and everyone else, does, and is doing the same thing. It is the inevitable result of people holding conflicting beliefs. It is not bigotted or narrow-minded, it is simply two different belief systems strongly held.

Do unto others... of course I believe it. I believe everything Jesus has said. I wish to be respected as an individual, so I respect others. I do not expect others to respect my faith if they disagree with it. It would be truly inconsistent to say that you respect something you believe to be false. I would think you disingenuous if you said you respect my beliefs while at the same time considering them untrue. That is a contradiction.

With genuine respect,

Phil Debenham

[NeedKarma]

Why is it that you reject my beliefs out of hand and them call me narrow minded and bigotted?

You seem a little confused Phil. No one rejects your beliefs, we are shocked that YOU reject others. Reminder - you said:

I cannot respect a persons belief that runs contrary to the teaching of the bible

I respect all people regardless of their beliefs. Do you also believe that the world would be better off without those people whose beliefs run contrary to the bible?

You used a passage from the bible:

"I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the Father but through me."

Where does it say to reject and disrespect those that do not share your faith?

That is what Christianity is all about. I am a Christian. Having respect for religions that teach contrary to the direct teachings of Jesus would make me a hypocrite. That is what you are asking me to do...compromise my faith....and that I will not do.

No that is not what christianity is all about. If all christians were like you there would be more holy wars and hatred. You are not much different than these islamic fundamentalists, this kind of thinking is their modus operandi.

I assure you that I respect each one of you at least as much as you respect each other. I also respect your right to believe whatever you choose, but I may not respect those beliefs.

You should be in politics because you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

You seem to be the male version of the infamous Margaret from Trading Spouses. That episode is truly disturbing to watch.

[NeedKarma]

The most happy people in the world are those who believe in some religion or another, who believe in a spiritual being, and follow their beliefs. It gives a feeling of "I am not alone", and we surely are not alone.

How do you explain the high divorce rate for the last ten years? The vast majority are religious people (I'm excluding civil ceremonies) that were so unhappy that they had to leave their husband/wife. You yourself are divorced, would you say you were happy the time proceeding your divorce?

[fredg]

No, I was not happy the time before, or sometime after, my divorce. I was not a Christian at that time.
How do I explain the high divorce rate in America? The fact that over 1/2 the marriages in the US end in divorce? And, if both partners are in their teens when married, the divorce rate for them is even higher?
I explain it from the simple fact that American society now accepts Divorce much easier than many years ago, and is not "frowned upon" as it once was.
It is also easier, legally, to get a divorce than many years ago. Many would rather end it, instead of trying to work things out.
Getting married in a church doesn't always mean that both partners, or could be only one, are religious. Many marry in a Church, merely following their parents' wishes, or think it's the "right thing" for them to do.
I'm not sure to what extent this is true, but in many cases, it is true.
I have also seen over the past many years, funeral services for those who have no spiritual beliefs, with a Pastor, Minister, Preacher, etc. If those who have passed on didn't want this type of burial service, surely they would have informed their family, or put it in writing not to have a burial service such as this.
It would be interesting to see what percentage of those Divorced, were attending some type of spiritual or religious services regularly before they even considered divorce, as opposed to those who were not.

[ScottGem]

Why is it that you reject my beliefs out of hand and them call me narrow minded and bigotted?

I am a Christian. Having respect for religions that teach contrary to the direct teachings of Jesus would make me a hypocrite. That is what you are asking me to do...compromise my faith....and that I will not do.

You seem to be confusing, in my humble opinion, respect for a belief or a belief system, with respect of an individual. I assure you that I respect each one of you at least as much as you respect each other. I also respect your right to believe whatever you choose, but I may not respect those beliefs. Each one of you does the same. Were it not so you would not be so angry at me for my beliefs.

With all love and respect,

Phil Debenham

Phil,
I'm going to try this one more time to hopefully make some sense to you. First, you make an extremely invalid assumption when you claim that we reject your beliefs "out of hand". You have no idea what level of research, reading and thought has gone into the formation of what I believe in. If we don't believe as you do, then we must not have been exposed to what you believe is the truth. That is in keeping with your narrow mindedness.

Second, When I was growing up my family attended the Brotherhood Synagogue in NYC. This synagogue shared the building with a church (I think it was Episcopalian, but I'm not sure). The two congregations offered shared events together. Each congregation respecting the others rights to the belief and practice of their religion. Clearly, not all Christians are so adamant and fanantic in their adherence to gospel that they disrepect the rights of others to their beliefs. Are they all hypocrites? I believe its possible to present one's own beliefs and the reasons for it without disrespecting what other people believe. That's what I've tried to do here. No I cannot respect your belief that you have the right to disrespect my beliefs because they confict with your own. I can and do respect your right to believe Christianity is the only true religion. Obviously there is a bit of a conflict here, but that conflict is your problem since your are caught in the Catch 22.

Third, your analogy about the Pacific Ocean is facetious and invalid. You can prove the existence of the Pacific to one who has never seen it by offering concrete evidence via Atlases and pictures. The only proof you have to support your beliefs are the words of The Bible. I am not minimizing the power of those words. Clearly they have a great deal of power. Clearly as well, many people do believe in the truth of those words to some degree or another. But many people do not. And those people have just as much right, at least in American society, to their beliefs.

The one who is confused here about what is being talked about is you. The issue here is a respect of each individual's rights to believe what they want. You are not being asked to respect my beliefs, just my right to believe them. You cannot respect that right by calling it "folly" or "detrimental". You cannot respect that right by trying to force your beliefs onto others.

[phildebenham]

Hell doesn’t exist.

Well, hell is something that some religions believe in. Other religions don’t believe in hell.

Why choose a religion?

You believe in God, that is enough. Do right in the world and that is all that is needed. All these organized religions who preach about xyz are wrong in that sense.

There are how many religions out there? They can’t all be right.

How do you know that hell doesn't exist?

How do you know that belief in God is enough? Who determines this?

How do you know that doing right in the world is all that is needed? Who determines what is right?

Phil Debenham

[arcura]

This is an interesting discussion.
It brings to mind the question, "What in your way of thinking is the respect of another person and the respect of a different belief?" It seems that from what I read here that there are two different ideas of what the word respect means in regard to the related subject.
Another question, "If we respect a different belief other than our own does that mean that in some way or other we are accepting the concept or just the existence of that belief?"
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[phildebenham]

Scott, et al,

I am not going to respond to by quoting you this time. I have, and no doubt you have as well, been quoted out of context many times, and I don't want to continue it here. It has caused considerably more confusion than clarity.

Let me say simply to you all:


1. I believe that all mankind are sinners and in need of a Savior.

2. I believe that Savior is Jesus Christ.

3. I believe the Creator God has spoken to us through His written word the bible.

4. I believe in heaven and hell.

5. I believe that those who reject Jesus Christ will not see heaven.

6. I believe that all people have the right to seek and to find God.

7. I believe that all people have the God given right to make their own choices.

8. I respect all of mankind, collectively and individually.

9. Any person of any religion is welcome into my home, and will be treated with the love and respect of Jesus Himself.

10. I do not agree (perhaps a better word than respect) with beliefs that are in conflict with mine. However, I a willing to discuss differences and open to being shown where my beliefs are wrong.

Phil Debenham

[phildebenham]

This is an interesting discussion.
It brings to mind the question, "What in your way of thinking is the respect of another person and the respect of a different belief?" It seems that from what I read here that there are two different ideas of what the word respect means in regard to the related subject.
Another question, "If we respect a different belief other than our own does that mean that in some way or other we are accepting the concept or just the existence of that belief?"
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Fred,

You are the first to understand the problem of this discussion. It is in the understanding of what "respect" really means. There is a huge difference between respect for a persons right to believe something and respecting that something they believe in. I respect the Islamic Fundamentalists right to consider me Satan, but I do not respect his belief that I am Satan. This is ALL I have been attempting to communicate throughout this discussion.

Blessings,

Phil Debenham

[ScottGem]

Phil and Fred,
Frankly, I don't understand why the two of you are confused. I have been very clear about what I have referred to. What I'm going to do is expand on Phil's 6th & 7th points:

6. I believe that all people have the right to seek and to find their own spirituality.

7. I believe that all people have the right to make their own choices.

The respect I have referred to is a respect for each person's right to believe what they want. I have been very specific about that. I do not ask for or expect anyone to respect or agree with my choices. Just respect that I have the right to make them. However, granting that respect means not belittling those choices. It means not directly challenging those choices by declaring they are wrong. You have the right to disagree, but that is different from a direct challenge.

I do not believe in Phil's first 5 points. But I respect that he does. If he finds comfort and solace in those beliefs then I am happy for him or anyone that does. I find my comfort and solace elsewhere.

I do believe in Phil's last 5 points (with amendments as noted). The place where I think we have differed is in the expression of the differences. In my view its one thing to say; "This is what I believe (and why)". Its a different thing to say; "This is what is true and if you don't agree you are wrong!". When expressed the first way, one can counter with one's beliefs and explanations and then agree to disagree. When expressed the latter way, it tends to compel the opposite side to challenge the assertions.

I realize that Phil, Fred (Arcura) and Chuck are laboring under a Catch 22 because their beliefs are such that they cannot accept that any other belief can exist. I can respect that they believe that. But I, respectfully submit, that one can say; "I believe this to be true" instead of "This is true!" without compromising their belief and therefore, without challenging and disrespecting other's rights to their beliefs.

I think this sums up what I have been trying to say throughout most of this thread.

I do have to add something here. Generally I do not get involved in discussions like these. I prefer threads that deal in more factual matters where there are concrete proofs. If someone says 2+2=5 then its all right to tell them they are wrong. If I say there is no Pacific Ocean, then I would deserve to be belittled for that, since there is ample proof that it does exist. But in a discussion like this, where so much is taken on faith and not irrefutable fact, then people have to respect one's right to a different belief.

[ScottGem]

Fred,

You are the first to understand the problem of this discussion. It is in the understanding of what "respect" really means. There is a huge difference between respect for a persons right to believe something and respecting that something they believe in. I respect the Islamic Fundamentalists right to consider me Satan, but I do not respect his belief that I am Satan. This is ALL I have been attempting to communicate throughout this discussion.

Blessings,

Phil Debenham

I kept reading this and the more I did the more I was bugged by it. See the thing is I agree with what you have said after the first two sentences. What bugs me is that I have been saying that all along. I've reviewed what I have said here and do not understand how anyone could be unclear about what I have been referring to. I have never asked for respect for my beliefs, only for my right to believe.

[phildebenham]

I kept reading this and the more I did the more I was bugged by it. See the thing is I agree with what you have said after the first two sentences. What bugs me is that I have been saying that all along. I've reviewed what I have said here and do not understand how anyone could be unclear about what I have been referring to. I have never asked for respect for my beliefs, only for my right to believe.

Scott,

And that is exactly what I have been saying as well. I do not disrespect your right to believe whatever you believe. I don't... honest. Never have.

I do have to add something here. Generally I do not get involved in discussions like these. I prefer threads that deal in more factual matters where there are concrete proofs. If someone says 2+2=5 then its alright to tell them they are wrong. If I say there is no Pacific Ocean, then I would deserve to be belittled for that, since there is ample proof that it does exist. But in a discussion like this, where so much is taken on faith and not irrefutable fact, then people have to respect one's right to a different belief.

Perhaps we should discuss the evidence or lack of evidence that God exists?

[arcura]

ScottGem,
You said, "I realize that Phil, Fred (Arcura) and Chuck are laboring under a Catch 22 because their beliefs are such that they cannot accept that any other belief can exist."
As far as I am concerned I'd be a blithering idiot to have a belief that cannot accept that any other belief exists.
I do not know what hole you dug that up from, but please put it back and bury it with a concrete plug.
Some of my friends have different beliefs and accept them as they are.
I also know that world wide there are many hundreds of different beliefs and I accept that fact.
I think you went overboard with that statement trying to say something else but the way it came out is ridiculous.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[talaniman]

Word,words, and more words How come for me to be right you have to be wrong.Sorry I don't understand how any one can believe so much of the dogma of every religion that there can only be one truth. The arrogance overwhelms me sometimes as it seems no matter what you believe or what you call it basically your saying the same thing and have the nerve to think that that's all there is. GET real your all right, in that you believe, but your all wrong in that you think that unless you do as I do you're a heathen. You can quote any scripture in any book in any religion as humans we cannot know everything and need to know a lot more before we say anyone else is wrong. For that matter who cares what you do in your church,or mosque or synagogue or corner bar. The only thing that is right is you choose to believe ,everything else is your opinion and you can do that anyway you want! If you don't like it, do like its been done for thousands of years -write your own bible and build your own church so you can rail about how wrong everyone else is!:cool: :p

[rideout2]

Hi. Jesus is your only answer. I do not care what others tell you, you must believe in, and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. There is no other.
May God bless you.

[phildebenham]

Hi. Jesus is your only answer. I do not care what others tell you, you must believe in, and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. There is no other.
May God bless you.

While I agree with you, rideout, your statement is too simplistic. You say that Jeus is the only answer, but what is the question? You say I must accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior, but you do not tell me why. As I said, I agree with you. I am also a Christian. However, I am trying to point out that your statements raise more questions than they answer.

YBIC,

Phil Debenham

One says "black", the other say "White". You want me to believe that both are right? Everything is relative, right? I don't think so Talaniman, its not what we see in the world around us.

[ScottGem]

Scott,

And that is exactly what I have been saying as well. I do not disrespect your right to believe whatever you believe. I don't....honest. Never have.

I've gone through the thread again. I think I found where some confusion has entered into it on the part of all parties, with certain statements that were not precise enough. Suffice it to say, that I think we are pretty much on the same page now as far as respecing ones right to their beliefs.

[ScottGem]

ScottGem,
You said, "I realize that Phil, Fred (Arcura) and Chuck are laboring under a Catch 22 because their beliefs are such that they cannot accept that any other belief can exist."
As far as I am concerned I'd be a blithering idiot to have a belief that cannot accept that any other belief exists.
I do not know what hole you dug that up from, but please put it back and bury it with a concrete plug.
Some of my friends have different beliefs and accept them as they are.
I also know that world wide there are many hundreds of different beliefs and I accept that fact.
I think you went overboard with that statement trying to say something else but the way it came out is ridiculous.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

Looking over the thread and what I said, I may have misspoke that to some extent. What I should have said is; "cannot accept that any other belief is true". Although the difference is subtle, using the word exists for true did alter what I was trying to say.