[orange]

I have read the Quran, Book of Mormon and of course the Bible, and I forget some years ago the book that the "Moonies" put out.

That's cool, Fr Chuck! I didn't even know the Moonies had a book. I suppose Rev. Moon wrote it? I will have to look it up. I've read parts of all of the other books you mentioned, but never had the patience to read a whole book! :p

[Tommyp!972]

You've prob read here already.. NO RELIGION IS PERFECT.. NONE!!
Y do you feel that you need to have religion in the 1st place... what ever happened to all the people that lived so many millions of years ago that didn't know about religion?did they all go to hell for not having a religion... not to tick any religion off but why can't it just be OK to live a good life be good to each and treat people with respect and not have a religion...

I'm personally am embarrassed to belong to my religion
I'm a catholic and see what the church does to cover up its sins while they are condemning others for the same CRIMES.. so don't feel bad about not having a religion I wish I could give mine up..
To me the church is setup like the mob
You got the don
The lieutenants
The sgts... etc

Just as crooked and a lot richer

[ScottGem]

Scott, the reference is Gen 19:1-8.

I just looked at several different versions. Most seem to use the wording "that we may know them" in describing what the crowd said to Lot. The word "know" is being interpreted as sexually. Not being a biblical scholar, I'm not going to argue with that interpretation. But I'm still not too comfortable with the idea of condoning the offering of virgin daughters for gang rape for any reason.

One thing that i keep seeing over and over again is that (almost) everyone posting here is completely stuck in their beliefs. Its as if one day, you decided that you had it all figured out and you dont need to learn anymore.

I'm not sure I completely agree with that. Clearly some people refuse to budge from their beliefs. But I think some people have expressed at least an interest in hearing other viewpoints and accepting what those viewpoints mean to them.

Another consistency I have seen is the argument to peoples "beliefs" as "prove it." Prove it? Are you serious? Its called "belief" and "faith" for the simple reason that its can't be proven in this life as we know it.

The point you are missing here is that some of the posts here don't acknowledge that these are beliefs taken on faith. If someone says to me, "this is what I believe", then my reaction is that they are welcome to their beliefs. But if someone says to me this is the one truth and factual, then I will ask them to prove it.

I totally respect other people's beliefs. I am glad for the people that have found solace, happiness, fulfillment or whatever in the practice of their religion. But I expect them to respect my beliefs in turn.

[phildebenham]

you've prob read here already..NO RELIGION IS PERFECT..NONE!!!
Y do u feel that you need to have religion in the 1st place...what ever happened to all the people that lived so many millions of years ago that didn't know about religion?did they all go to hell for not having a religion...not to tick any religion off but y can't it just be ok to live a good life be good to each and treat people with respect and not have a religion....

Well Tommy, I certainly understand your frustration with "religion", and especially Catholicism in light of the continuing sexual preditor scandals within that religion. But, what exactly do you mean when you use the term "religion"? Do you mean "organized religions or denominations", or "belief in God", or "belief in the bible"?

It is clear from your post that you at least do not believe the bible as written, otherwise you wouldn't believe that people lived for millions of years without religion (for that matter you wouldn't believe that people lived millions of years ago at all!)

Let's assume that the bible isn't true and that we all got here by natural evolutionary processes and mutations. If that is true then man came from molecules by chance random processes. Therefore, man determines truth. There is nothing above him to determine truth. If that is true, what is good? What is bad? What is right? What is wrong? What is a good life? Is the priest wrong to have sex with young boys? Well, if man determines truth, then, no, it is not wrong. Man determines truth.

Now, if the bible is true then God created man out of the dust of the earth. Therefore we belong to and are responsible to our Creator. God determines truth. Right and wrong have meaning. A good life has meaning. The sexual preditor is in sin and stands condemned by God.

You see, Tommy, if the God of the Bible is not true you have nothing to complain about. Everything, EVERYTHING, is the result of chance random processes and there is no such thing as right and wrong, good or bad. You determine truth, and what's true for you isn't true for someone else, there are no answers.

The bible is true, Tommy, and therefore we have absolutes and can determine right and wrong, good and bad. You would benefit greatly by not listening to "religion" or "science" first, but, instead first reading what the Creator has said. Then you will be able to determine what is right or wrong with what you hear from "religion" and "science."

Phil Debenham

[phildebenham]

That's cool, Fr Chuck! I didn't even know the Moonies had a book. I suppose Rev. Moon wrote it? I will have to look it up. I've read parts of all of the other books you mentioned, but never had the patience to read a whole book! :p

Moon's book is called Divine Principles. It teaches that Jesus came to obtain salvation for mankind, but failed, and that Moon himself is the new messiah sent to fix Jesus' screw ups. If the bible is true, and I believe it is, Moon is a heretic of the first order.

Phil Debenham

[ScottGem]

The bible is true, Tommy, and therefore we have absolutes and can determine right and wrong, good and bad. You would benefit greatly by not listening to "religion" or "science" first, but, instead first reading what the Creator has said. Then you will be able to determine what is right or wrong with what you hear from "religion" and "science."

Phil Debenham

This is exactly what I was talking about in my response to Dr Jizzle. Phil is stating what he believes not as his belief but as a universal truth. That says that his belief is the one and only answer. This shows a lack of respect for other people's beliefs. It shows a narrow mindedness and an intolerance that I feel is very wrong. It creates a level of hostility because it says that I'm right and you are wrong.

I feel compelled to fight such intolerance and narrowmidnedness wherever I see it.

[phildebenham]

I totally respect other people's beliefs. I am glad for the people that have found solace, happiness, fulfillment or whatever in the practice of their religion. But I expect them to respect my beliefs in turn.

I wonder what you mean by "respect"? If you mean "respect one's right to believe", then I quite agree with you. If you mean "respect what one believes", then I could not disagree more.

If you believe something that is detrimental to you, I cannot respect that belief. Rather, I would endeavor to expose the folly and danger of that belief in the hopes of guiding you away from the danger towards which you are heading. Can you "respect" that?

Phil Debenham

[phildebenham]

This is exactly what I was talking about in my response to Dr Jizzle. Phil is stating what he believes not as his belief but as a universal truth. That says that his belief is the one and only answer. This shows a lack of respect for other people's beliefs. It shows a narrow mindedness and an intolerance that I feel is very wrong. It creates a level of hostility because it says that I'm right and you are wrong.

I feel compelled to fight such intolerance and narrowmidnedness wherever I see it.

Scott,

So what you are saying is that you are tolerant of every other viewpoint but my viewpoint which says that your viewpoint is wrong. Isn't that being just as intolerant and narrowminded? Aren't you saying that you are right and I am wrong? There is no difference between what you are doing and what you are fighting.

Phil Debenham

[ScottGem]

I wonder what you mean by "respect"? If you mean "respect one's right to believe", then I quite agree with you. If you mean "respect what one believes", then I could not disagree more.

If you believe something that is detrimental to you, I cannot respect that belief. Rather, I would endeavor to expose the folly and danger of that belief in the hopes of guiding you away from the danger towards which you are heading. Can you "respect" that?

Phil Debenham

I mean one's right to believe. Though, there is some element of respecting what they believe as well.

No, I cannot respect that. What gives you the right to determine what might be detrimental to me? What gives you the right to determine what is dangerous or folly? That just smacks of the same narrow-mindedness and intolerance I spoke of. It also bespeaks an arrogance that is abhorrent to me. Yeah, if you see me step out into traffic and stop me, that's one thing, but that's not a belief issue. For you to preach and proselytize to me because of your belief in an after-life and eternal damnation or such is NOT respecting my right to my beliefs.

Scott,

So what you are saying is that you are tolerant of every other viewpoint but my viewpoint which says that your viewpoint is wrong. Isn't that being just as intolerant and narrowminded? Aren't you saying that you are right and I am wrong? There is no difference between what you are doing and what you are fighting.

Phil Debenham

No, that's not what I'm saying. You are entitled to believe I am wrong. You are entitled to say you believe I am wrong if I present my beliefs directly to you or in a public forum such as this. There have been several posts in this thread that said, essentially; this is what I believe and why. I have not objected to those whether they believed the same as myself or not. There have been others who have said; this is what is true and what you should believe. Those are the ones I object to.

What you are not entitled to do is say that your belief is the one and only truth without being able to provide concrete proof of that. What you are not entitled to do is preach to me when I have not asked for it. What you are not entitled to do is determine what is detrimental to me based on your own beliefs.

[phildebenham]

I mean one's right to believe. Though, there is some element of respecting what they believe as well.

No, I cannot respect that. What gives you the right to determine what might be detrimental to me? What gives you the right to determine what is dangerous or folly? That just smacks of the same narrow-mindedness and intolerance I spoke of. It also bespeaks an arrogance that is abhorrent to me. Yeah, if you see me step out into traffic and stop me, that's one thing, but that's not a belief issue. For you to preach and proselytize to me because of your belief in an after-life and eternal damnation or such is NOT respecting my right to my beliefs.

If you cannot respect that, then you cannot respect my beliefs and you are guilty of practicing what you claim to fight. I believe that the bible is the inspired word of God and that if one rejects the word God has, in my belief, spoken directly to your (and all of mankinds) benefit and to the avoidance of mans problems. That is my belief Scott. That belief requires that I share it with you and everyone else as truth. I believe it is truth. Not my truth, but the truth given us from the Almighty Creator to Whom we are all responsible. I respect your right to reject God, Scott. You are not angry that I don't respect your beliefs, you are angry that I say your beliefs are wrong.

No, that's not what I'm saying. You are entitled to believe I am wrong. You are entitled to say you believe I am wrong if I present my beliefs directly to you or in a public forum such as this. There have been several posts in this thread that said, essentially; this is what I believe and why. I have not objected to those whether they believed the same as myself or not. There have been others who have said; this is what is true and what you should believe. Those are the ones I object to.

What you are not entitled to do is say that your belief is the one and only truth without being able to provide concrete proof of that. What you are not entitled to do is preach to me when I have not asked for it. What you are not entitled to do is determine what is detrimental to me based on your own beliefs.

Not only am I entitled, by my beliefs (which you claim to respect), to say that God's revealed truth (not mine) is the one and only truth, and preach that truth (whether or not you've requested it), and to tell people what God (not me) has determined what is detrimental to them, but I am commanded by that same God to do so! What you have not entitled me to do, God has commanded that I do. I choose to listen to Him over you. That is my belief, and your failure to "respect" that belief contridicts all you have written on the subject.

Phil Debenham

[orange]

Y do u feel that you need to have religion in the 1st place...what ever happened to all the people that lived so many millions of years ago that didn't know about religion?did they all go to hell for not having a religion...

Actually if you're referring to "cavemen" like the Neanderthals, scientists believe that they did have a form of religion or belief in an afterlife, basically because of the careful way they buried they dead.

I agree with you though that no religion is perfect, and I understand your frustrations about crimes that churches have committed and gotten away with. I have a hard time with that myself!

[orange]

Since you guys are on the topic of respect, I'm just going to add a few words. I believe in respecting the beliefs of another person, but only insofar as those beliefs do not harm others. For example, I don't respect the beliefs of racists, cults and cult leaders, those who believe its G-ds will that innocent people should die, or those whose beliefs justify the abuse of women. In those cases, I don't even think I respect the person's right to believe those things. I think they should change their beliefs, as they are detrimental to society.

[phildebenham]

Since you guys are on the topic of respect, I'm just going to add a few words. I believe in respecting the beliefs of another person, but only insofar as those beliefs do not harm others. For example, I don't respect the beliefs of racists, cults and cult leaders, those who believe its G-ds will that innocent people should die, or those whose beliefs justify the abuse of women. In those cases, I don't even think I respect the person's right to believe those things. I think they should change their beliefs, as they are detrimental to society.

Orange,

I believe that you have made a reasonable statement even though I do not entirely agree with it. Where I don't agree with it is the statement "I believe in respecting the beliefs of another person". I certainly do agree with your limitations to that respect. What you are saying is that some peoples beliefs are wrong (you have innumerated why they are wrong), and therefore you cannot respect those beliefs (because they do damage to society). I find that I cannot respect a persons belief that runs contrary to the teaching of the bible. That is because I believe that there is a God who has communicated to man through His Word as well as through His Son, Jesus Christ. I don't disrespect a person for believing contrary to that, but I don't respect the contrary belief simply because I believe that it is quite an incorrect belief.

Politically I might be called a "Reagan Conservative". Now, on a political level, I do not disrespect a "Liberal", but I certainly do disrespect some of the liberals viewpoints because I am quite convinced that they are wrong. It is the same with belief and is true with all people regardless of what side of the fence they stand on.

Phil Debenham

[orange]

Politically I might be called a "Reagan Conservative". Now, on a political level, I do not disrespect a "Liberal", but I certainly do disrespect some of the liberals viewpoints because I am quite convinced that they are wrong. It is the same with belief and is true with all people regardless of what side of the fence they stand on.

Haha. Sorry, I mean no disrespect here, but it always strikes me as funny how differently the term "Liberal" is used in the US as opposed to Canada (where I live). Here a Liberal is a member of the Liberal Party, and they are definitely not left-wing. I would say more centrist. Left-wing here is more like the New Democratic Party or The Green Party. And on the other hand, I think the Conservative Party of Canada is less right-wing than the Conservatives / Republicans in the United States. Anyway it's interesting.

[Curlyben]

I find that I cannot respect a persons belief that runs contrary to the teaching of the bible. That is because I believe that there is a God who has communicated to man through His Word as well as through His Son, Jesus Christ. I don't disrespect a person for believing contrary to that, but I don't respect the contrary belief simply because I believe that it is quite an incorrect belief.
I do not disrespect a "Liberal", but I certainly do disrespect some of the liberals viewpoints because I am quite convinced that they are wrong. It is the same with belief and is true with all people regardless of what side of the fence they stand on.

What an incredably bigotted statement.
So basically what you are saying is you have no respect for other religions other than Christian !
What an amazing narrow minded and puritanical outlook on life.

[31pumpkin]

ScottGem:

I am not trying to be offensive towards you because I really do accept your right to believe in something/someone or not.
But when you come on a public forum (religion or not), It's nice to bring something beneficial to the table.
I'm just saying that hearing you say you essentially believe in nothing... well who wants nothing?
In fact, it's like bring roadkill to the table... and sorry, but it tends to have a contaminating effect.
But yes, I do accept you. Peaceful proposition..

[arcura]

Tommyp!972
The reason you are unhappy with your Catholic faith is because you do not understand it.
You demonstrate that when you talk about the Church covering up its sins.
As an example, if that is in regard to the sex scandal, THE CHURCH did not do any covering up, but some bishops and priest did try to do so.
In reality such sins have been fought against by the Church from the very beginning.
The Catholic Church is not a mob (that is an unruly group of hostile or angry people). The Catholic Church is a huge family of over 2 billion people and like in most families there are some disagreements.
I sense from your hostility that you are upset or dislike authority. If that's the case then you live in a world where authority is the rule not the exception.
God is the greatest authority. Other authorities are your City, County, State, and National governments.
Any organization you may belong to has rules and regulations that are authorities.
One of the most frustrating and miserable ways to life you life is to resist authority.
I think you would be a much happier person and far better informed if you have a personal meeting with you local priest (or any Catholic priest) and tell him what you have posted here and ask him for clarification and an exhalation of you gripes.
Or you can do it on line with a priest or Bishop like Bishop Chuck here.
The secret is to not be hostile, but rather to sincerely want answers that are of value and true. Hostility turns people off and gets you nowhere but into troubles of various kinds.
I wish you much peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura):) :) :)

[ScottGem]

See Phil, its actually the reverse. What it boils down to is that your beliefs are such that you cannot respect anyone else's beliefs. Your beliefs require you to show arrogance, disrespect, intolerance and closedmindeness to others. If those are your beliefs, then, you are right I can't and won't respect them. But the reason is because you won't offer me the same respect I am willing to offer you.

Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you. Don't you believe in that? If you won't respect my right to believe what I want by attempting to force your beliefs on me, then why should I respect your rights?

You say "I respect your right to reject God". But you don't.
Basically, you are caught in a Catch 22. To adhere to what you believe requires you to disrespect other's rights. By disrespecting other's rights you forfeit the right to reciprocal respect.

I'm just saying that hearing you say you essentially believe in nothing...well who wants nothing?

Umm where did you get the idea I believe in nothing? I have stated that I believe in the Judeo-Christian ethic. I believe in behaving in a moral and ethical manner. I believe in respecting other peoples rights to believe what they want. But I draw the line when those beliefs interfere with my rights to believe what I want. No I definitely do not believe in nothing.

[arcura]

ScottGen,
You said, "By disrespecting other's rights you forfeit the right to reciprocal respect."
Unfortunately with some people that is true.
But from my point of view everyone should be respected, and their belief also.
But that does not mean that I cannot ponder such a view and then either accept or reject it as I so decide.
It is the withholding of respect that causes much grief in humanity.
Just because you might not respect me or my belief I should not deal with you in the same manner. All that does is make matters worse.
Respectfully, that is my view on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[ScottGem]

Fred,
First, I have always felt that respect has to be earned. However, I also believe that respect should be given until a person shows themselves undeserving of respect. The fact is that I have shown respect for other people's beliefs. The fact is also, that I have not be given respect in turn.

The problem here seems to be, as I said earlier, a Catch 22. If you insist that your faith is the only truth and that you have to try to save me from my beliefs to the contrary, then you are not and cannot respect my rights to believe differently. I agree that's it's a conundrum. The solution, in my view, is to restrict yourself to a statement of what you believe and why. Then leave it up the other person to decide to accept or reject those beliefs. And to then simply agree to disagree.

But the proselytizing that I have seen, the insistence that other people's beliefs are wrong is not respecting other's rights.