[Tommyp!972]

Thanks, Tommy, but I already knew the definition as I'm sure does acura.

Just trying to help the masses bud

[ScottGem]

The most happy people in the world are those who believe in some religion or another, who believe in a spiritual being, and follow their beliefs. It gives a feeling of "I am not alone", and we surely are not alone.

I started to trash this, but as I thought about it, I changed my mind somewhat. I think its clear that being part of a group can enhance one's happiness. And its also clear that practicing a religion can help one attain happiness.

My objection here is twofold. First in the use of the word "most". I don't believe there is any proof of such a statement nor do I believe it accurate. I personally have known several very happy people who have no religious affiliation. I personally, consider myself a happy person. I have a job I enjoy and a family I love and that loves me. I could be happier (a winning lottery ticket would take care of that;) ). But I KNOW that practicing a religion would NOT make me any happier. Which leads to my second objection. The implication in that statement that people who don't practice a religion are somehow less happy or that they will increase their happiness by doing so. Nor do I believe that practicing a religion is a guarantee of happiness.

In my experience, the happiest people are those that are self-assured and confident. Such people tend to have a high self-esteem which breeds happiness. Such people tend to not need the bolsterings of religion to achieve their happiness.

[phildebenham]

just trying to help the masses bud

Commendable, thank you.

[fredg]

Hi,
My comment on the "happiest" people was not meant to be taken personal. If some of you have taken it personal, as it looks like, then I do apologize for the misunderstanding.
My comment on spiritual people, in general, as being the happiest; as opposed to those without any spiritual beliefs; is based on personal experiences over the past 40 years. As far as "statistical" proof, I guess referred to by NeedKarma with his "disapproval" comment about my opinion, I don't know if any has been compiled anywhere.
Again, I apologize if you feel this was a "personal" comment. It wasn't. It was like many, many, many, many other opinions offered here in the Forum.
Have a cup of coffee, take two breaths, re-boot, and start over.

[phildebenham]

I have no religion yet and I am 15. My parents decided when i was born to let me pick my own religion but I can't decide. Is it possible for me to go to hell because I dont have a religion? I beleive in god and everything but it seems everytime I start to learn something about a religion it either scares me or I disagree with something. I feel so confused. :confused:

Dear animeluver06,

I previously answered this post by saying that the bible has the answers you seek and then asked you to email my ministry directly to discuss this. I said that this would avoid all the negative feedback that others would post in response to this discussion. That post got immediate negative feedback, as predicted.

Since I have received no email from you, I will summerize what the bible teaches in this answer in the hopes that you, and others, will consider how this applies to your, and their, life.

Throughout the bible we learn that God wrote it through the agency of men He directed in order to communicate with us. Thus the bible is often referred to as the Word of God. In the first book of the bible, Genesis, we learn that God created everything, including man and woman, and that everything was very good. God communicated with that first man and woman using language, so we understand that God is also the creator of language. God placed the man (Adam) and the woman (Eve) in a garden and told them that they could eat of every plant in the garden except for the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil."

Because God created man, man belongs to God. Therefore, God determines truth. So when God tells us something we can believe Him regardless of what man has to say on the subject. What that means is that we can believe God first. We measure what man says by what God has already said.

Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God had warned them that if they did so they would surely die. That word "die" is a Hebrew idiom which means "dying die." In other words when they ate they would begin to die and continuing dying until they were dead. Prior to mans sin (disobedience to God) there was no death, disease, or suffering. Death, disease, and suffering are a result of mans rebellion against God.

God, however, still loved that man and woman (all all of their future offspring, which includes you and I and all of mankind), so He made provision for them (and us) to get back to a right relationship with God and eventually put an end to death, disease, and suffering as well. He promised the woman (Eve) that there would come a Savior who would be perfect and would die sacrificially for all of sinful mankind, thus paying the price of mans sin and creating the possibility for us to regain a right relationship with God again.

Romans 6:23 tells us the price of our sin: "The wages of sin is death...", and the verse continues by telling us what the Savior accomplished for us with His sacrificial death, "....but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." If you do not accept the free gift of God then you must pay the wages yourself. Those wages are death... eternal separation from the God who loves you, in a place called hell. This is not God's desire for you. The bible tells us that "God is not willing that any should perish..." He wants your love and He wants to lavish His love upon you, but He will not force you to make the right decision even as He did not force Adam and Eve to not eat of the forbidden tree.

However, He did make salvation available to you at a great cost to Himself.
Romans 5:8 says, "God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

I'm sure you've heard of John 3:16? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." Will you believe in Him? I assure you that I do and I know in my heart the truth of what He has said.

Again I beseech you, write to me through the web site, www.OilandWineMinistries.org, and I will be happy to discuss and answer any questions you may have. This invitation includes anyone else who in interested in eternity as well.

May God richly bless you,

Phil Debenham

[phildebenham]

phildebenham,
Yes you are correct and that is why I perfer Exegesis primarily done by those who have been studying Holy Scripture for 2000 years.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

You are a wonderful brother, and I am proud to call you such!

Exegesis need not be dependent upon others (although much is to be gained through some of their wisdom and study), but is dependent upon your own study. Purgatory, for example, is not exegetically seen in any of the verses you have pointed out... and that was my point. You have brought man's fallible ideas into the scripture rather than letting scripture determine the validity or lack thereof of man's fallible ideas. This is a common error in the church today, and a very serious one. We should always let God's word speak to us rather than us telling God what he means. Wouldn't you agree?

In Christ,

Phil

[ScottGem]

Hi,
My comment on the "happiest" people was not meant to be taken personal. If some of you have taken it personal, as it looks like, then I do apologize for the misunderstanding.
My comment on spiritual people, in general, as being the happiest; as opposed to those without any spiritual beliefs; is based on personal experiences over the past 40 years. As far as "statistical" proof, I guess referred to by NeedKarma with his "disapproval" comment about my opinion, I don't know if any has been compiled anywhere.
Again, I apologize if you feel this was a "personal" comment. It wasn't. It was like many, many, many, many other opinions offered here in the Forum.
Have a cup of coffee, take two breaths, re-boot, and start over.

Fred,
I can't speak for Need, but I didn't take it personally. How I did take it was as a narrow-minded, unsubstantiated comment. As I said, it implied that people who practice a religion are happier then people who don't.

If you had said something like the following:

Practicing any religion gives someone a sense a belonging. Humans are a social animal and that sense of belonging helps achieve happiness in some people.

I would have not objected. I actually think that statement to be a truism.

This is something I have noticed about you many times in the past. You have this tendency to make exaggerated statements (most, always, etc.) that are unsupported by facts or proof. If you stop to think more about what you post and try to keep to facts that can be substantiated, you might not get such reactions as you did here.

This is not an attack against you, it is simply a constructive criticism based on a pattern discernable in your posting history.

P.S. Normally I would have PMed this but you claim you delete my PMs unread.

[orange]

Thanks, Tommy, but I already knew the definition as I'm sure does acura.

I for one had never heard of it. I'm very glad he gave the definition.

[NeedKarma]

Hi,
My comment on the "happiest" people was not meant to be taken personal. If some of you have taken it personal, as it looks like, then I do apologize for the misunderstanding.
My comment on spiritual people, in general, as being the happiest; as opposed to those without any spiritual beliefs; is based on personal experiences over the past 40 years. As far as "statistical" proof, I guess referred to by NeedKarma with his "disapproval" comment about my opinion, I don't know if any has been compiled anywhere.
Again, I apologize if you feel this was a "personal" comment. It wasn't. It was like many, many, many, many other opinions offered here in the Forum.
Have a cup of coffee, take two breaths, re-boot, and start over.

Your post didn't offer your opinion, you posted a statement that is meant to taken as fact. I didn't take it personally either, I was sticking up for the billions of people who are happy without living your particular lifestyle. I have travelled extensively and have met people from all religions, met tons who practice no religion - Scott expressed it well in a previous post: "the happiest people are those that are self-assured and confident. Such people tend to have a high self-esteem which breeds happiness." I believe we all know extremely unhappy devout people. Painting with the wide brush is a very dangerous thing to do, people are individuals not groups. You seem to have a chauvinistic view.

[orange]

I found this fun quiz online called Belief-O-Matic. You answer 20 questions and depending on your answers, your results tell you which religious beliefs you are most in agreement with. My top 5 were Unitarian, Secular Humanist, Reform Judaism, Nontheist and Liberal Quaker. I'm not sure what a Liberal Quaker is, haha, I'm going to have to do some research. :) Anyway here's the link if anyone else wants to take the quiz:

http://beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

[NeedKarma]

I found this fun quiz online called Belief-O-Matic. You answer 20 questions and depending on your answers, your results tell you which religious beliefs you are most in agreement with. My top 5 were Unitarian, Secular Humanist, Reform Judaism, Nontheist and Liberal Quaker. I'm not sure what a Liberal Quaker is, haha, I'm going to have to do some research. :) Anyways here's the link if anyone else wants to take the quiz:

http://beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html

Coo site! That could be the subject of a new thread or add it to Rickj's thread.

[jduke44]

Thanks for the correction. It was a while ago when I researched this for some reason that it was Job stuck in my mind.

As for your expanded version of it, I don't recall any reference to homosexuality in the passages I read. I'll have to see if I can find it and review it.

Scott, the reference is Gen 19:1-8. This is right before God destroys Sodom and Gomorrah. The way it is said in the text is "bring them out unto us, that we may know them. ". Most if not all of the versions agree that this is a more of an intimate thing than today's version of being friends. New International version even says sex. After rereading the text I think the main reason he gave his daughters is because he had just invited two men in to rest from their journey and the other 2 men came to the door. Lot not wanting to be a bad host and allowing men to basically rape the guests he offered his daughters. The other explanation I gave was another reason in connection. It has been a while for me too since I have read this text.

I won't spend anymore time on this because it is that important but here is a link to some bible version if you would like to look it up yourself.

http://www.bible.com/bibleresources/...+19&version1=9.

[31pumpkin]

jduke44

I already checked it, and the beautiful moral of the story is that the 2 men inside were actually angels, and God destroyed the men outside before anything occurred to his daughters( Lot's)

[DrJ]

I have been trying to keep up with this debate but I have been too busy at work to read all the posts and post myself. One thing that I keep seeing over and over again is that (almost) everyone posting here is completely stuck in their beliefs. Its as if one day, you decided that you had it all figured out and you don't need to learn anymore.

Now, like I said, I haven't been able to read through every post. But it seems like no one is taking the time to look at others perspectives with an open mind... just a lot of hostility.

I have seen (almost) everyone make very valid and interesting points. But they all seem to be taken with negativity. There seems to be a lot of ego playing major roles in here.

Another consistency I have seen is the argument to peoples "beliefs" as "prove it." Prove it? Are you serious? Its called "belief" and "faith" for the simple reason that its can't be proven in this life as we know it. If someone feels that God is speaking to them, I doubt their going to say, "Wait a tick, God... lemme grab my tape recorder so I can prove this to my friends." That's just ridiculous.

If I believe something and I can't prove it, you can call me a liar. But I I AM lying, then I would have no place in a debate like this. If something is unprovable, don't write if off just because it can't be proven.

(sorry... I have been wanting to jump in here somewhere and I suppose this is where lol)

[orange]

You've made some really great points, Dr Jizzle. Funny, you're jumping in just as I feel I've exhausted everything I can read and say here. Personally I don't know why I get involved in these threads, because usually I end up feeling bad one way or another. Thanks for adding your insight, though!

[DrJ]

True... and to your comments you left, I know that it has stayed more or less professional. That is very commendable. Most the people involved have been members long enough to keep it civil.

What saddens (for lack of a better word) me is that we have such diverse opinions and backgrounds and we could really be learning a lot from each other rather than tearing others ideas/beliefs down.

Its true that some people are not as educated as others... some people cannot communicate their point or idea as well as others... and some people don't understand things as well as others. But instead of the hostility toward this, we should be helping each other see the other sides of things.

"The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend."

There may be a lot more here than any of us have seen.

[orange]

What saddens (for lack of a better word) me is that we have such diverse opinions and backgrounds and we could really be learning a lot from each other rather than tearing others ideas/beliefs down.

I agree with you completely! I am always interested in learning about the beliefs (and cultures, for that matter) of others. What upsets me is when some people insist that their way is the only way and that everyone else must follow that way. People like that would have a really hard time living in my multicultural neighborhood here in Canada. I live directly across the street from a very active Mosque, which is 2 blocks from our Jewish Community Centre. Within a 6 block radius there is a Ukrainian Catholic Church, a Baptist Church, and a Sikh Temple. These people are my friends and neighbors. They are the people I see on the street when I walk my dog, and the people I talk to at the library and the grocery store. Our children will all attend school together. If I openly judged them based on their beliefs, I would have no friends. And to think that I'm better than any of them or deserve better because of my beliefs makes me sick to my stomach.

Its true that some people are not as educated as others... some people cannot communicate their point or idea as well as others... and some people don't understand things as well as others. But instead of the hostility toward this, we should be helping each other see the other sides of things.

That's a very valid point! However, people will only be willing to see the other side of things if they feel their ideas and opinions are being respected as well. Unfortunately that respect is often lacking.

Thanks again for your comments!

[31pumpkin]

I respect your viewpoint. God bless those nuns! And you also, Orange. You are going to make a fine mother indeed!

[orange]

I respect your viewpoint. God bless those nuns! And you also, Orange. You are going to make a fine mother indeed!

Oh and I guess I can't edit a comment, but I meant to add that I respect your beliefs as well! One of my best friends since childhood, Praise (that's her real name!) is the daughter of a pentecostal minister. The whole family has always been very kind to me. I used to have sleep overs at her place, and went to Bible Camp with her, too. It was a welcome relief from some of the bad foster homes I was in. In fact, Praise's father was the one who rescued me from the last bad foster home I was in and got me into the Catholic Boarding school!

[Fr_Chuck]

I have read the Quran, Book of Mormon and of course the Bible, and I forget some years ago the book that the "Moonies" put out.

I study the bible in 5 separate versions. I have preached in Methodist, Baptist, independent, Orthodox and Catholic Churches. A person often finds his path within or to a faith is always a journey, it never ends we always find a deeper faith and perhaps a closer truth.