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Awesome! Thanks for the info, orange... I would be interested in further discussion of his in another thread; however, I agree, we shouldn't have hijacked animeluvers thread... but it happens. Lol
ANIMELUVER... feel free to ask any more questions here... this is YOUR thread lol. We will, as always, do our best to help! :cool: |
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I have an idea... Why not try Jesus first? He'll probably honor your faith by giving you peace in troubled times when He hears your prayers, and keep you.. happy!
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Orange I read all the posts about the differences in Jews and Christians and I am fasinated with what was posted by you. I would like to read more up on it. Anyway thank you for sharing all your thoughts on it.
Joe |
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Actually I found it interesting to read all of that. But I have to correct certain people on something. I am a her not a him. Lol.
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Not to confuse, but the ancient book of the dead (Africa) has 41 commandments 10 of the original brought by Moses and 31 more.This book predates the bible by 2000 years.
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These were not christians jews or muslims and they worshipped what would become egyptian deities then as now the holy men or priest used their religious power to keep control of the masses and to keep the wealth in their control. Just goes to show that some things never change
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 Originally Posted by animeluver06
General christian trends are to see Jesus Christ as a god. He never intended that. If you want to be a christian just read "The Gospel According to Saint Mark" and maybe the one according to St Luke. NO MORE. Specially avoid to read Apocalypses for it seems absurd science fiction. Greetings, Pinochio |
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Originally Posted by Pinochio
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Pay close attention to what Bishop Chuck said.
He has the experience, the wide field of knowledge, and the wisdom which all together males what he said of great value and IT IS the truth. Some may not agree, but that does not change the fact that he speaks true. Peace and kindness, Fred (arcura) |
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When I was a kid, it was, but in a declaration von Pope John Paul the II he describes the heaven as an aproaching to God and the Hell as a renunce of God. No mention about Purgatory I haven't heard long ago. But why to worry about? Be a good guy or a good girl and the judge you have inside of you will bring peace to your soul. Sinn means to cause physic or moral damage to others or to yourself and fail to do whatever you have to do. Avoid regret.
Look in the Google for DESIDERATA. |
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Purgatory is based on Holy Scripture. Thus...
I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid. Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory. Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory. Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master. Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory. 1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin. Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory. 2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory. Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory. Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory. 1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision. Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory. Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed. Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven). Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God. Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory. Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory. 2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible. |
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Originally Posted by animeluver06
Confused about religion:- Age matters very little because religion is an issue that affects us all young middle aged and mature folks. Don't think that you are alone, quite the contrary; although many refuse to admit it, most people are confused, especially when it comes to the subjects of heaven - hell - salvation etc. First of all if, as you say, you have no religion then you have no hell, so whether you will go to hell or not is immaterial, if you don’t believe in it, then you have no problem. If you have rigid belief in hell even if you don’t have a religion then you will make your own hell while you continue to worry about this issue. It is easy for people to make their own hell on earth with self doubts and constant self questioning and worrying. Rather than worrying and wondering and asking every Tom **** and Harry who will give reams of bible quotes which don’t amount to a hill of beans, do your own research. Taste, study and test different religions to see which one fills your spiritual needs. When you ask this type of question in a public forum such as this one you will get two types of answers: 1 Agnostics or Atheists whose spiritual search have led them nowhere and thus have no spiritual guidance to fill their needs. No matter how much they negate and deny they DO have spiritual need which is a generic need in every human being – the need to believe in something to make life worth living; to soothe the bad times and to rejoice in the good times. 2 Overly enthusiastic words usually written by fervent Christians who will discharge an enormous amount of scriptures from bible pages. This excessive font of words will do two things… bore you to tears and confuse you even more. Then there will be the third type of answer, and that is to do your own search and to reach your own conclusions so that YOU will be satisfied. Now the question is how to do this. and that, my young friend, is not an easy task. I cannot tell you what to do but I can tell you what I did when I was searching for those answers. I studied different religions, tasted some by going to different churches, synagogues and temples. I did NOT listen to those who wished to convert me to their way of thinking and their religion and above all I did NOT listen to those who claimed that their religion was THE ONE AND ONLY TRYE ONE and all others were doomed and of no value. I can’t say that I have found ALL the answers but I have found what quenches my spiritual thirst. Here are a few sites that might help you. http://www.religioustolerance.org/ http://www.northernway.org/pagandna.html http://www.pantheism.net/ http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/religion/ |
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Irulan,
Your answer was excellent. I just wanted to comment on one point you made: Originally Posted by Irulan
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Originally Posted by NeedKarma
Thanks for the comment and be assured that I am not shocked at all. LOL! I agree that life is worth living all by itself but you can't argue with the fact that some people do have more spiritual needs than others. Take for example your screen name NeedKarma - this indicates that you know Karmic Law - What we do to others returns to us thricefold. Is this not a spiritual belief which stems from a need? |
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It might... but this can alos happen without the need for a deity. You could play with semantics and call everything a need. I just believe in the Golden Rule which trancends any specific religion... oh yea, and I hope that bad things happen to bad people, is that wrong? :D
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Okay man, You want to be a Christain, I promise you this is what you want. I promise I promise I promise. Okay you know there are a freaking ton loads of religion out there right. Okay now to narrow it down to one for you. All the religions are what man said or man made up right, if you didn't know that now you do. Christainaty is the only one with the bible and its all GODS words, it's the word of GOD. I don't now if you think about death or not. But it used to scare me, cause you think about it and you just die and waste away in the ground, and life goes on. No that's not the case. Heaven and Hell are very Very very real. If you want some more reasons you can email me at [email protected] I will give you all the reasons if you want me to. And questions you have I will answer them.
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I just noticed this thread and frankly I am both thrilled and appalled by some of the posts here. The posts by Irulan and Orange were especially intelligent and thoughtful.
Originally Posted by Boswee
As to Heaven and Hell being very real as Boswee and Fr Chuck claim. I would like to know how you know that. Have you been there? Have you spoken to anyone who has been there? The fact is you BELIEVE they exist based on your faith in words that were written down by men purporting to be the "Word of God". You are entitled to your beliefs and what you believe in may be true. But to express them as irrefutable fact is just wrong. But Chuck does make a very good point about religion setting rules and standards. The Ten Commandments form the basis of what is called the Judeo-Christian ethic. But it doesn't require belief in God, the rewards (or punishments) of an after-life or practice of any religion to be a moral and ethical person. In my belief organized religion is a crutch used by man to explain things that nothing else can explain. Many religions exist mostly as a framework to ensure moral and ethical behavior by the carrot/stick method of the promise of an after-life. Its one of the reasons that, even though I don't consider myself a religious person, I do consider myself a Jew because that approach is not really used in Judiasm. Finally to animeluver, I would not be concerned about whether you practice a specific religion or not. Instead, concern yourself with being a loving, generous and moral person. If you do that, you will be happy with yourself and that's what's most important. |
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Irulan,
I’m sorry, but I must take exception to several things you said I’ll quote you, “although many refuse to admit it, most people are confused, especially when it comes to the subjects of heaven - hell - salvation etc.” Relatively you might be right about the “most” but about 2 billion people believe in the existence of those. Another quote of yours, “reams of bible quotes which don’t amount to a hill of beans”. Those Holy Scripture passages are far more that a “hill of beans” to those who hold them sacred and that is not limited to just Christians and Jews, even the Dali Lama claimed that the bible is sacred. You are quoted un all of the following…… “do your own research” What make you think I have not? I have visited many different religious services and found them interesting.” I have studied many via several different means including publications, history, classes, discussions, and experience. “Overly enthusiastic words usually written by fervent Christians who will discharge an enormous amount of scriptures from bible pages. This excessive font of words will do two things… bore you to tears and confuse you even more.” It will if your mind is turned off from concentrating on the seriousness of the scripture being offered. There are many millions of people who are not confused. If you are that is sad. “I did NOT listen to those who wished to convert me to their way of thinking and their religion and above all I did NOT listen to those who claimed that their religion was THE ONE AND ONLY TRYE ONE and all others were doomed and of no value. I can’t say that I have found ALL the answers but I have found what quenches my spiritual thirst.” And there in dwells your problem. You DID NOT listen. As a result you did not seek the answers as to why they made such claims. After enough through questioning to find the answers to those claims (some people have hard time verbalizing why they make them so other research is necessary), then you can comfortably accept or reject them, but you will understand them far better and in that IS great spiritual value. Thank you for that post. It is very interesting, but I fear not in the manner you intended. Peace and kindness, Fred (arcura) |
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Originally Posted by arcura
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Originally Posted by arcura
To say that the faith you believe in is the one and only truth (which is what you said originally) is chauvinistic and biased. |
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