[magprob]

I am curious if anyone might have a theroy on Original Sin? There has been so much speculation over hundreds of years and I would like to hear what you think. Thanks:confused:

[Fr_Chuck]

Not sure why this is under Paranormal but Original sin and not sure why you believe there is a lot of speculation over it, In religion you either believe it exists as in the teachings of the Roman Catholic, the Independent Catholics, the various Orthodox Churches, the Anglican, most Lutherans churches.

It is where because sin entered the world though Adam ( Adam and Eve) and were put out of the garden, and all mankind was cursed ( man to work hard and women to suffer in child birth) This curse and thus their sin continues in the line of all men. So man at birth contains this original sin.
This is why all of the above churches baptise the infant, to cleanse them from the original sin.

More current churches Baptist, Penticostal, Univeralists and so on don't accept this idea. They do not believe in original sin, thus they do not baptise until a child reaches their teens. Or adults.

It was an accepted Chrsitian fact for almost 1500 years it is only in the more recent few hundred years that some wish not to accept this fact.

[magprob]

I feel it has an importanant place on this forum due to the fact we were discussing the evil and good in the world as it pertains to the spirits that people are encountering and if in fact they are good or evil. Does GOD have both attributes or do just we, the creation of GOD, have those attributes of good and evil and everything in between? Chuck, there has been great controversy through out the ages, even within the Catholic church, concerning this subject. It is the Church's way to not say that GOD is the origin of, or creator of, the evil we experience but that man, the creation is. It is to say GOD "does not have an evil bone in his body". Where did Evil originate Chuck? Because we are less than GOD, is it just a natural attribute of us? Then when we pass on and our spirits are earth bound, does that somehow trigger the evil to be the predominate nature? Or, are there other evil spirits with evil that did not originate from Adam and Eve, and were in existence before them, that are loose on this earth and have the ability to "play with us?

[Fr_Chuck]

Since there are areas that deal with religion this would have best been placed there I still think, An area that deals with UFO's or Ghosts or fortune telling is not really a area for a religious discussion.

Sin is a matter of free will, since God created all things, he would have created the ability to sin, but not the sin itself. Sin of course as bibical study tells us, started though pride. Where one of God's creations, a angel wished to become or be god. How it all happened we do not know and will perhaps never know.

But sin while not created has been allowed to exist by God. Had God not allowed Adam and Eve to exist. He could have just wiped them out and started over if he wished.

But I believe that sin exists today as a burden or testing of some level for mankind. Will we keep the moral course or will we take to the fancy of the day and follow our personal desires over that of God.

The only real debate over it, is when man wishes to try and understand it on his terms, by using mans reasoning and mans teachings. If one merely accepts it as it is told to us in the bible, then one has the answer.

God did create everything, A angel now called Satan turned against God and has tempted various men directly as we are told in the bible.
Because of this man has adapted the sinful nature. Man will live forever on earth with his sin nature that he has to deal with daily.

[magprob]

Do you think that maybe Satan is still "tempting men on earth today? Could these Aliens possibly be evil spirits trying to convince the population that the bible is not true, ie: "new age movement." Channeling of spirit voices telling every one there is nothing to worry about because it is all good so if it feels good do it. Why, that sounds just like Satan to me Chuck! "Go ahead, who's going to know?" How many times have you heard that one Chuck? If the issues of the paranormal today have nothing to do with religon as you say Chuck, then none of the issues of today have anything to do with the church so I guess you should turn in your nice robe there and we will all just sleep in on Sunday morning! Wait!? We can't do that, who will pass around the collection plate, worse yet, who will donate thiths if we all are no longer prisoners of fear and compelled to pave our way to heaven with dollor bills? Hmmmmm, Ok, OK, I got it... This will really scare them... Ready? THE END IS NEAR! THE END IS NEAR! Ah yes I am a dramatic son of a gun and sometime too passionate but I hope you get my point FR Chuck. Satan is alive and well working to his end on this planet now. That is the reason so many thousands of people are having paranormal experiances now. That is the reason for so many UFO sitings. Come on Chuck, you should know that better than I being a man of the cloth. And you should be the first to admit that the Ghost Busting for Dummies book is actually Bible.

[Fr_Chuck]

Of course as Chrsitians we should know ( while many don't though) that if heaven is real, then so is the devil, satan, or what ever name you want to give to him, we know from the bible that he and a large portion of his followers were taken from heaven. We also know that Satan is free to travel back and forth across the earth.

We also know that he is only a powerful angel,not god, so he can only be in one place at one time, But his followers ( the evil angels now called demons or evil spirits) are here on earth. Most of them don't have to do much anymore. They merely get rid of restrictiions on man and man will do most of his own harm. And of course it is a combination of our own evil will and the tempting that is those little voices that tell us to do what we want.

The one area in the bible I find intersting is where Jesus was walking on the water and his followers thought he was a Ghost. Not a devil, not a angel but a ghost. Now this can be perhaps merely their own minds and Christ did not correct them and say Ghosts are not real.

We also go to the witch that brought Samuel back to speak to the king. We are not told it was an evil spirit, but that it was actually Samuel that came to speak to the king. So even the bible has some mention of the occult and also includes witchcraft and other things.

So perhaps there is an some level of ghosts and spirits that don't fall into the evil spirit area that we just can't explain. It does not take away from anything in the bible, the bible deals with those things needed for worship and salvation, and a guilde to everyday living. It tells us not to call up spirits or ghosts, it tells us not to go after witchcraft and so on.
If they did not exist we would not be warned about them.

As for as UFO, who knows and cares, If a entire fleet came in tomorrow it again would not take away or add to the bible, God never said he created any other worlds with living things, but he never said he did not either.

As for as ghosts or spirits, the church as a whole accepts the existence of evil spirits and possessions and the spirit being "in" a place. It is not done often and then only with the greatest care but spirits have been sent away both in the bible and in today's society,

But I am also the first to say that we can't merely blame the devil on what we do, he is only their to temp us, not to force us, we are in the end the ones who chose to do evil or wrong doing.

[Starman]

I feel it has an importanant place on this forum due to the fact we were discussing the evil and good in the world as it pertains to the spirits that people are encountering and if in fact they are good or evil. Does GOD have both attributes or do just we, the creation of GOD, have those attributes of good and evil and everything in between? Chuck, there has been great controversy through out the ages, even within the Catholic church, concerning this subject. It is the Church's way to not say that GOD is the origin of, or creator of, the evil we experiance but that man, the creation is. It is to say GOD "does not have an evil bone in his body". Where did Evil originate Chuck? Beacuse we are less than GOD, is it just a natural attribute of us? Then when we pass on and our spirits are earth bound, does that somehow trigger the evil to be the predominate nature? Or, are there other evil spirits with evil that did not originate from Adam and Eve, and were in existance before them, that are loose on this earth and have the ability to "play with us?

The Bible describes God as good. In fact, he is said to be the personification of love.
His works are described as perfect. The reason they seem botched up on earth now is because of the independence mankind demanded via rebellion and was temporarily granted. With that granting came a removal of God's blessing of the earth for human habitation.


Evil? It originated in the mind of Satan and spread from there. However, potential misuse of free was there and with it the possibility of sin. Being less than God doesn't necessarily make a creature evil. The angels are less and the majority have kept their holiness intact despite the temptations. There are even humans who have lived exemplary Christian lives despite their inherited sinful tendencies.

The only earthbound spirits mentioned in the Bible are Satan and the rebel angels who are now limited to this region. These feign to be dear departed in order to spread the original lie of you will not die.

Soul immortal?
Body


BTW
I agree that the subject is pertinent to the occult which is being discussed here because it does pertain to the spirits which people here say they are encountering.

[aqua@home]

Original sin I believe to be when Eve ate of the forbidden fruit. This had to be done for our sake. We are here and being tested and tried. God gives us the freedom to choose good or bad and the way in which we want to live our lives. I think this is why sin had to be introduced. Without sin we would live in a perfect world and I think that would defeat the purpose of us being here on earth.

I agree with Starman, only good can come from God. He is perfect. Satan is the cause of all evil. We are less than God and are tested on a daily basis. We are tested constantly. I don't know about aliens or anything but I do believe that if a person has God on their side, anything is possible. I also believe the same with Satan except in a purely evil way.

As far as the entire baptism thing. I don't believe that God would send any child away because they haven't been baptised. I don't think you need to be baptised until you are aware of your actions and whether they are right or wrong. Knowledge is everything.

[Starman]

Original sin I believe to be when Eve ate of the forbidden fruit. This had to be done for our sake.

So the Devil and God were in cahoots to get Adam and Eve to sin for our sake?
What scriptural basis is there for this concept?

[Starman]

Original sin I believe to be when Eve ate of the forbidden fruit. This had to be done for our sake.

So the Devil and God were in cahoots to get Adam and Eve to sin for our sake? What scriptural basis is there for this concept?

[aqua@home]

No they were not in cahoots. I just think that God had a plan and sin was necessary for the plan. For us to return to heaven wiser and having made the choice to follow Him there would have to be opposition. If nothing bad comes from God then it can only come from Satan.

[Diolectic]

I am curious if anyone might have a theroy on Original Sin? There has been so much speculation over hundreds of years and I would like to hear what you think. Thanks:confused:

Original sin is a bogus concept which started by Agustine of Hippo.
Agustine was refuted by Pelagius. However, Augustine won the side of orthodoxy by riged courts.
Now, anyone who comes against "Original sin"/"sin nature" is labeled a heretic. It comes about that no one wants to be called a heretic, so no one will try to refut it, unless they are so bold with conviction as I and others.

The only reason that Pelagius is called a heretic today is because Emperor Honorius was a target of his exhortations against the abuses of wealth and power.
Pelagius chastised the wealthy and powerful, including Emperor Honorius, for their abuses of property and privilege, exhorting them to the Christian virtues of mercy and charity.

Therefore Emperor Honorius willingly came to the assistance of the Augustinians when they had been thoroughly defeated in condemning Pelagius as a heretic themselves.

They had been unable to successfully condemn Pelagius whenever he was present or when allowed to present his defense in writing. Three councils had declared him innocent of heresy. All they had to show for their efforts were Pelagius's condemnation by their own courts and their own chastisement by the Bishop of Rome. Undaunted and disobedient, they appealed to the Roman Emperor Honorius;

In 415 Augustine sent Orosius to Jerome in Palestine with the mission of convicting Pelagius of heresy.
In June 415, a Synod was convened in Jerusalem with Orosius accusing Pelagius of heresy. Pelagius was present to defend himself and was acquitted.

A second council was called in December at Diospolis (Lydda) with two previously deposed Gallic Bishops bringing charges against Pelagius.
Again, he was present to defend himself and, again, he was acquitted.
In a dissatisfied reaction the Augustinians convened two of their own councils in 416 -- at Carthage and Milevum where they condemned both Pelagius and Celestius. Pelagius was not present to defend himself; so of coarse he was condemned because He could not defend himself.

The Augustinians also appealed to Pope Innocent 1 who claimed universal authority for the Bishop of Rome by declaring that nothing done in the provinces could be regarded as finished until it had come to his knowledge. Innocent 1, often referred to as "the first Pope", declared that the Pope's decisions affected "all the churches of the world" and reflects his attempt to exert control over the East as well as the West. The Augustinians successfully persuaded him to issue a conditional condemnation of Pelagius and Celestius on January 27, 417 which would be effective only if they did not return to orthodoxy. However, Innocent I died on March 12 and was replaced by Pope Zosimus I on March 18.

Zosimus was an Eastern Christian who decided to re-examine the case, calling for a Synod at the Basilica of St. Clement in Rome. Pelagius was unable to attend but sent a Confession of Faith which was intended for Innocent 1 (Pelagius being unawares of the previous Pope's death). Zosimus was favorably impressed with Pelagius' defense; Zosimus, after hearing the case from Caelestius and letters from Pelagius, which professed the need for God’s grace, declared Pelagius’ doctrine to be fully orthodox and that he was a man of unconditional faith.
Zosimus went on to say that Pelagius had for many years been outstanding in good works and in service to God; he was theologically sound and never left the catholic faith.

On April 30, 418 Emperor Honorius invoked the power of the state and issued an Imperial Rescript -- a civil document -- ordering action against Pelagius on the charge that public meetings and credulous adolescents affect the peace of Rome.

Augustine put pressure on Zosimus to reconsider his decisions, which would be almost
as big a scandal as Zosimus overturning the decree of Innocent. The pressure went so far as to include the Emperor who pressured Zosimus to change his acquittal of Pelagius.
With the pressures of the Empire on his back as well as the Council of
Carthage passing canons against the teachings of Pelagius, Zosimus caved in to the
pressure and reversed his decision and condemned Pelagius. An ecclesiastical document written by Pope Zosimus followed. It condemned Pelagius as a heretic and banned him from Rome.

The exact reasons Zosimus reversed his position after the Imperial Rescript are unknown but it was done only after pressure from the Emperor. The text of Zosimus' condemnation is lost and the formal grounds for the condemnation are purely a matter of speculation.

Immediately upon Zosimus' death in 418 two different Bishops were consecrated Pope - Eulalius and Boniface I. Eulalius, like Zosimus, was a Greek. At the Synod of Gangra (Armenia) in 381, Eulalius was among the Bishops who passed Synodical canons in support of the equality of marriage and celibacy and condemned those who denied the legitimacy of the married priesthood.

Both positions were in opposition to the views of the Augustinians. In 419 Eulalius was replaced with the pro-Augustinian Boniface only through the intervention of the Emperor.

It is only a matter of time that when Pelagius dies and not able to defend himself that he would remain accused as a heretic and his doctrines be anathematized (declared heresy).

The Church as been polluted with Augustines Neo-platonic (Neoplatonism) Gnosticism/Manichean theology which the theory of "Original sin"/"sin nature" stems from, it only gives it Christian terms.

You all should listen to "The Hidden Things of God" - Part 1 by Paris Reidhead
http://media.sermonindex.net/1/SID1657.mp3

It explains how the church got into Neo-Platonic Gnostic/Manichean theology through Augustine.

(Information is from Rev. Thomas J. Faulkenbury)

The theory of "Original sin" says that mankind has a so called "sin nature", however, our nature comes from what we are, which is human, and that is to mature and to bear fruit.

Our fruit, weather sin or righteousness comes from what we love or what we put our affections on.
Our own affections effects (not causes) individual choices that we make. The choice that you make will naturally follow your affections, but your affections do not necessitate the decision (your decision may naturally follow your affection, but it does not have to).

Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than the one commanding you, you may not consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions strongly tend toward your affections so that you will to do what you have favor towards.

[Diolectic]

Does GOD have both attributes or do just we, the creation of GOD, have those attributes of good and evil and everything in between?

God does not have attributes of good and moral evil. Mankind only has "attributes of good and evil because we choose to.
We are created autonomous (with free will) so that we have true virtue of love.
We must understand what "free will" is.
Free will is not the ability to do whatever you want, for that is omnipotence.

It is evident that mankind can not do whatever He wants. However, mankind is free to want even though he has no ability to petform. This is free will. Free will has to do with the ability to want, not the ability to do or perform. It is the ability to will, not the ability to do. The ability to want or to will is moral; the ability to do or perform is physical. Free will is the power of contingent choice, the ability to determine what you want and what you do not want. Free will is not the physical ability to do whatever you want. Free will is the moral ability to decide what you want. (By Jesse Morrell)

Where did Evil originate Chuck? Because we are less than GOD, is it just a natural attribute of us?

It originated with Lucifer (Satan before his rebellion). But the Evil on the Earth originates with mankind choosing to be autonomous apart from God and His government.

Then when we pass on and our spirits are earth bound, does that somehow trigger the evil to be the predominate nature?

ecclesiastes 12:7 then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Matthew 10:28 fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The spirit of Man goes back to God while the Soul of man stays with His body.
The destination of the soul & body are to be descided on at the Great white throne of Judgment.
They who acknowledges there sin and repents from them, turning to God having Jesus as Lord & Savior to forgive your sins will be forever in paradise, while they who reject God until their death will go to evrlasting separation from God, in outer darkness, where there is gnashing of teeth (Mat 13:49-50).

Or, are there other evil spirits with evil that did not originate from Adam and Eve, and were in existence before them, that are loose on this earth and have the ability to "play with us?

Yes, but they do not really "play with us" as I think you know.
They hate us, because we are made in the likeness of God" They only decieve us to believe lies.
None the less, Satan can only tempt you of that which you already have a longing for.

Do you think that maybe Satan is still "tempting men on earth today?

He is for a fact.
However, as I said, Satan can only tempt you of that which you already have a longing for.
No one can be tempted of what they don't want. Vanilla Ice cream is delicious, but I don't want any now, so I can't be tempted with it.
When some one is full of food, even the most delicious food will not tempt them.
Proverb 27:7 The full soul loathes a honeycomb; but to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet.

Could these Aliens possibly be evil spirits trying to convince the population that the bible is not true, ie: "new age movement."

Yes, Alien encounters are always in the same area as the paranormal/suppernatural.

Aliens are only demons.

[Diolectic]

No they were not in cahoots. I just think that God had a plan and sin was necessary for the plan. For us to return to heaven wiser and having made the choice to follow Him there would have to be opposition. If nothing bad comes from God then it can only come from Satan.

God never wanted sin.
Sin was never "necessary" for God in any of His plans for mankind.
However, because mankind does sin, God made amends for it through the attonement of Jesus.