[lobrobster]

A friend of mine is afraid she can be convicted and sentenced to hell for her thoughts.

She's a very devout Christian. Super nice person. She goes to church every Sunday and sometimes even in the middle of the week. She also prays to God every morning and night.

The other day, she mentioned something about going to hell. I laughed, because she's the most loyal Christian I know. But she wasn't kidding. She told me she has impure thoughts. She's married, but thinks about relationships with other men. She sometimes wishes bad things on people. Sometimes she's jealous of her sister and wishes something bad would happen to her. Nothing real bad, but like lose her job or something. She would secretly enjoy that. Ditto for some of her coworkers.

My friend also claims she has a form of mental Tourette's syndrome, where she'll just impulsively think something like, "I hate God". She doesn't know why this happens, she doesn't hate God, but she can't stop herself from thinking that and much worse, although she wouldn't tell me what worse things she thought.

Of course, anyone who knows me knows I don't believe in any of this. But she seems genuinely distraught over this and I told her I knew of an online forum where people seem to be knowledgeable about Christianity and sincere about helping people. So I promised I would ask this question for her...

Can you be convicted of thought crimes? My own answer would be most certainly not, but what do I know? It would surpass all the things I already think are barbaric about the bible. It seems appalling to think that your innermost thoughts are under supreme surveillance 24/7. What a way to have to live!

So I'm guessing/hoping you'll say she's OK. Again, she's one of the nicest sweetest people I know. She has to be for me to be posting a question on here for her. Even though I don't believe in any of this, I hate to see her so upset and worried about this. I'll print out some of your answers and show them to her. Thanks.

[N0help4u]

Tell her to read the Bible because it says God forgives when you ask him to.
Going to church and all is good but that does not get you to heaven.
She needs to learn to not beat herself up because God isn't as harsh on her as she is on herself.
God wants you to love him with a pure love. Being obsessed that you are not good enough is not good at all.

[lobrobster]

Tell her to read the Bible because it says God forgives when you ask him to.
Going to church and all is good but that does not get you to heaven.
She needs to learn to not beat herself up because God isn't as harsh on her as she is on herself.
God wants you to love him with a pure love. Being obsessed that you are not good enough is not good at all.

Thanks Nohelp. Would you know of any particular passage that might comfort her? Anywhere where it specifically says God forgives you when you ask Him to? I'm sure she must read the bible, but maybe she's not reading the right parts. But I don't know that. Maybe she doesn't read the bible much.

[Choux]

This is a very sad example of how people can be seriously damaged mentally by certain teachings of religion.

The poor girl has not learned a socially acceptable way to express anger and sexual passion because her religion has probably taught her that anger and sex is not acceptable for a "good girl", so she has repressed to the point where she is literally going mad.

There are ways to express anger *when it happens* so that it doesn't fester under the surface causing all kinds of damage. All people have to have a backbone... so they can say "You really make me mad" when someone angers them!

Now... people cannot control what they think... thoughts come and go, float in and out of the conscious mind... what one needs to know is *not* to hang onto thoughts and go about one's business.

This girl must go to a good psychiatrist/therapist immediately. She is confused and self-destructive, and she needs help reversing the road she is heading down.

[excon]

Hello lob:

Fortunately, we are NOT our thoughts. If we were, they'da never let me out of the joint - and they'd put everybody else in.

excon

[Wondergirl]

Maybe this will help your friend. It's the Reformer Martin Luther's explanation of his phrase, in Christ we are "simul iustus et peccator"--in Christ we are at the same time saint and sinner. This is from Luther's Preface to his Lectures on Romans (notice what a tangled web we weave for ourselves... ):

"Since the saints are always conscious of their sin, and seek righteousness from God in accordance with his mercy, they are always reckoned as righteous by God (semper quoque iusti a deo reputantur). Thus in their own eyes, and as a matter of fact, they are unrighteous. But God reckons them as righteous on account of their confession of their sin. In fact, they are sinners; however, they are righteous by the reckoning of a merciful God (Re vera peccatores, sed reputatione miserentis Dei iusti). Without knowing it, they are righteous; knowing it, they are unrighteous. They are sinners in fact, but righteous in hope (peccatores in re, iusti autem in spe)...

It is like the case of a man who is ill, who trusts the doctor who promises him a certain recovery and in the meantime obeys the doctor's instructions, abstaining from what has been forbidden to him, in the hope of the promised recovery (in spe promissae sanitatis), so that he does not do anything to hinder this promised recovery…Now this man who is ill, is he healthy? The fact is that he is a man who is both ill and healthy at the same time (immo aegrotus simul et sanus). As a matter of fact, he is ill; but he is healthy on account of the certain promise of the doctor, who he trusts and who reckons him as healthy already, because he is sure that he will cure him. Indeed he has already begun to cure him, and no longer regards him as having a terminal illness. In the same way, our Samaritan, Christ, has brought this ill man to the inn to be cared for, and has begun to cure him, having promised him the most certain cure leading to eternal life.

Now is this man perfectly righteous? No. But he is at one and the same time a sinner and a righteous person (simul iustus et peccator). He is a sinner in fact, but a righteous person by the sure reckoning and promise of God that he will continue to deliver him from sin until he has completely cured him. And so he is totally healthy in hope, but a sinner in fact (sanus perfecte est in spe, in re autem peccator). He has the beginning of righteousness, and so always continues more and more to seek it, while realizing that he is always unrighteous.

[squeaks77]

Well if that is true, no one will get in heaven except Jesus and that seems a bit moot.

[lobrobster]

Maybe this will help your friend. It's the Reformer Martin Luther's explanation of his phrase, in Christ we are "simul iustus et peccator"--in Christ we are at the same time saint and sinner. This is from Luther's Preface to his Lectures on Romans (notice what a tangled web we weave for ourselves....):

"Since the saints are always conscious of their sin, and seek righteousness from God in accordance with his mercy, they are always reckoned as righteous by God (semper quoque iusti a deo reputantur). Thus in their own eyes, and as a matter of fact, they are unrighteous. But God reckons them as righteous on account of their confession of their sin. In fact, they are sinners; however, they are righteous by the reckoning of a merciful God (Re vera peccatores, sed reputatione miserentis Dei iusti). Without knowing it, they are righteous; knowing it, they are unrighteous. They are sinners in fact, but righteous in hope (peccatores in re, iusti autem in spe)....

It is like the case of a man who is ill, who trusts the doctor who promises him a certain recovery and in the meantime obeys the doctor’s instructions, abstaining from what has been forbidden to him, in the hope of the promised recovery (in spe promissae sanitatis), so that he does not do anything to hinder this promised recovery…Now this man who is ill, is he healthy? The fact is that he is a man who is both ill and healthy at the same time (immo aegrotus simul et sanus). As a matter of fact, he is ill; but he is healthy on account of the certain promise of the doctor, who he trusts and who reckons him as healthy already, because he is sure that he will cure him. Indeed he has already begun to cure him, and no longer regards him as having a terminal illness. In the same way, our Samaritan, Christ, has brought this ill man to the inn to be cared for, and has begun to cure him, having promised him the most certain cure leading to eternal life.

Now is this man perfectly righteous? No. But he is at one and the same time a sinner and a righteous person (simul iustus et peccator). He is a sinner in fact, but a righteous person by the sure reckoning and promise of God that he will continue to deliver him from sin until he has completely cured him. And so he is totally healthy in hope, but a sinner in fact (sanus perfecte est in spe, in re autem peccator). He has the beginning of righteousness, and so always continues more and more to seek it, while realizing that he is always unrighteous.

I don't buy it because of what I perceive to be glaring inconsistencies in logic, but I think my friend will find great comfort in this. She does go to confession every week and hopefully will identify with this. So far, this is the post I think will help her the most. Thanks!

[George_1950]

lobrobster writes: "Can you be convicted of thought crimes? My own answer would be most certainly not, but what do I know? It would surpass all the things I already think are barbaric about the bible. It seems appalling to think that your innermost thoughts are under supreme surveillance 24/7. What a way to have to live!"
I don't see the question as being whether one can be convicted of thought crimes. There is an old saying, that misery loves company. Your friend trusts you with her innermost thoughts and is apparently ashamed or surprised by them. I believe that is why Christians recognize and accept the blessing of confession: "Confession is the treatment God prescribes when we reject his place in our life, or when we violate his instructions for behaviors or attitudes in living." Check: Confession, a key to Christian growth And, : the role of confession of sin - Google Search

[N0help4u]

"As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us."
Psalm 103:12

"Come now and let us reason together," says the Lord,
"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow."
Isaiah 1:18

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
1 John 1:9

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new."
2 Corinthians 5:17

"Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."
Hebrews 10:17

"The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him."
Daniel 9:9

"For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."
Colossians 1:13-14

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus ..."
Romans 8:1

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins, and once they are forgiven, they are all forgiven (Colossians 1:14; Acts 10:43). However, when we stumble, we are called to confess our sins - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). Yes, Christians do sin (1 John 1:8) - but the Christian life is not to be identified by a life of sin. Believers are a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). We have the Holy Spirit in us producing good fruit (Galatians 5:22-23). A Christian life should be a changed life. A person who claims to be a believer yet continually lives a life that says otherwise should question the genuineness of his faith. Christians are forgiven no matter how many times they sin, but at the same time, Christians should live a progressively more holy life as they grow closer to Christ.

Christians continue to sin after they are saved - we will not be free from sin until we die or Jesus comes back. However, becoming a Christian results in a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). A person will go from producing the acts of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21) to producing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). This change does not happen instantly, but it does happen over time. Paul tells us, "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11).

[Fr_Chuck]

Actually it sounds like a compulsion disorder but in this case it has taken a form within religion, People can be afraid of going outside, of touching a door knob, of any of a million things, in their case, they are afraid of their toughts.

Obviously they do not know enouigh about Christianity or their denomination belief, **unless they are in one of the few that require a sinless life, that I don't know about**

But the very first thing we learn is that yes of course our thoughts are sin, as our actions, but we also learn that we all sin every day, all of us, even the best Christain alive sins a lot every day.

And we learn that Christ died for those sins and we are forgiven for them, so sin no longer dooms a Chrsitian to hell, in fact if we look, it is the not accepting Christ our physcial choice that decides if we are saved or not saved.

A few religions have came up with mortal sins that have to be confessed to God, but these are far from thoughts, so even in those denominations their thoughts would not doom them to hell.

So I will agree, they either need to
1. learn more about Christian faith, since they appear to have forgotten what being saved is about.

2. get professional help, since they seem to have a disorder that has them obsessed over this.

[lobrobster]

Actually it sounds like a compulsion disorder but in this case it has taken a form within religion, People can be afraid of going outside, of touching a door knob, of any of a million things, in thier case, they are afraid of thier toughts.

Obviously they do not know enouigh about Christianity or thier denomination beleif, **unless they are in one of the few that require a sinless life, that I don't know about**

But the very first thing we learn is that yes of course our thoughts are sin, as our actions, but we also learn that we all sin every day, all of us, even the best Christain alive sins alot every day.

And we learn that Christ died for those sins and we are forgiven for them, so sin no longer dooms a Chrsitian to hell, in fact if we look, it is the not accepting Christ our physcial choice that decides if we are saved or not saved.

A few religions have came up with mortal sins that have to be confessed to God, but these are far from thoughts, so even in those denominations thier thoughts would not doom them to hell.

So I will agree, they either need to
1. learn more about Christian faith, since they appear to have forgotten what being saved is about.

2. get professional help, since they seem to have a disorder that has them obsessed over this.

I'll also print this post out for her, since your profile states you have actual experience in the ministry. Hopefully, she'll take comfort that you seem to be saying as long as she has asked forgiveness and accepts Jesus as her Savior, these thoughts she suffers with are OK. Maybe even a sign of temptation from the devil?

A question I would have is, couldn't not accepting Jesus also be a thought crime? I've never understood why it is that all other sins except that one can be forgiven. Especially since that seems to be the easiest to sin to commit. At least many of the stories about Jesus are the hardest thing to for me to believe about Christianity (well, maybe not 'the' hardest, but certainly among the many others).

[Wondergirl]

Maybe even a sign of temptation from the devil?

Or maybe because she is human, like the rest of us?

A question I would have is, couldn't not accepting Jesus also be a thought crime? I've never understood why it is that all other sins except that one can be forgiven.

That's not the unforgivable sin. Having no love (hardening your heart against God and against love) is unforgivable. Jesus said, Love God and show love to each other. Those are the two greatest commandments.

[lobrobster]

That's not the unforgivable sin. Having no love (hardening your heart against God and against love) is unforgivable. Jesus said, Love God and show love to each other. Those are the two greatest commandments.

Wait a sec... Are you saying I could get into heaven as a non-believer? My heart is certainly not hardened against God just as it is not hardened against the tooth fairy. I simply don't think either has ever existed.

In most conversations I have with Christians, they INSIST that you must accept Jesus. So that if one person loved his neighbor and did good all his life, he STILL would have no shot at entering heaven without accepting Jesus. Whereas, a person who spent his life raping and killing children would walk straight into heaven if he accepted Jesus the moment before he died.

Surely you can see how this doesn't sit right to a rational thinking person who doesn't believe what you do. But maybe I'm wrong and about to learn something here?

[Wondergirl]

Wait a sec... Are you saying I could get into heaven as a non-believer?! My heart is certainly not hardened against God just as it is not hardened against the tooth fairy. I simply don't think either has ever existed.

The very fact that you are asking these questions mean you are open to where and how God can fit into your life.

God's a lot bigger than people think He is. Too many try to push Him into a little box and tape it shut and then wrap it up with pretty paper made from all their hopes and wishes and imaginings and private musings.

I'd write more, but have to start getting ready for work. I'll think about you in between cataloging books and will toss in more thoughts later.

[sassyT]

Bad thoughts come to everyone Good and bad, but it does not mean she will go to hell for it. The bible says when bad thoughts come to your mind you must take them captive to the obedience of Jesus Christ and not dwell on them. Hope that helps :)

[Galveston1]

Some preacher of long ago said "you can't keep the birds from flying over your head, but you don't have to let them build a nest in your hair". Impure thoughts can come from our own nature or from an evil spiritual source. Whether it becomes sin depends on whether we reject the thought or begin to consider it as a possible course of action. God judges intent, and it is not sin to be tempted. The fact that she is disturbed by these thoughts could be a pretty good indication that her heart is right toward God. If that were not so, then those thoughts would not bother her. (I have preached the Word of God for many years, in case you are wondering.)

[N0help4u]

You could also tell your friend that if she has such a struggle with forgiveness how can she ever expect that accepting Jesus is worth it. Tell her that she needs to trust God and read the verses I posted on page 1.
You want to know about a person that did good all their life that waits until their dead bed to accept Jesus vs someone that did wrong all their life and claimed to be a Christian. I believe that each relationship with God is individual and you can not go by 'somebody else' that is one of the reasons people saying hypocrite gets to me. God knows your heart, he knows you will mess up but the question is are you playing games with God or are you learning from your mistakes? God knows whose hearts are pure and who is not really interested.

[lobrobster]

You want to know about a person that did good all their life that waits til their dead bed to accept Jesus vs someone that did wrong all their life and claimed to be a Christian.

I actually have the opposite question... How is it that a kind and gentle person who does good all of their life but NEVER managed to get himself to believe in virgin births, gets shut out of heaven before the guy who commits evil all of his life but starts believing in the moments before his death?

I will never understand this one thing if I live to be a million. How can we call this a compassionate, loving, and fair God?

[Wondergirl]

I will never understand this one thing if I live to be a million. How can we call this a compassionate, loving, and fair God?

And who said this is what God does?