[Credendovidis]

Instead of "believers" and "non-believers" I suggest "religious" and "non-religious" because I certainly have beliefs...just not in your gods.

Theists and Atheists
.
Atheism
A Theism
A=without or no
Theism=belief in God(s)
Atheism=without ( or no) belief in God(s).
.
Atheism is the correct word : it does not exclude any other believes the person may harbour!
We all have "believes". From Santa Claus to the Tooth fairy to political views to personal preferences, etc.
;)

[firmbeliever]

And I am a HE!
:D

I knew you were a He!

Precisely the reason for me asking you for your reasons to post this topic. If you do not like to debate, than why open a topic which only intention is to discuss what you posted as topic starter?

What I do is not debate,I write about what I believe in with the idea to get it across the cultural and religious/non religious divide we may have in our thinking.The purpose of such a thread is not to debate but put forth ideas in a nice way,debate can get heated up and even hurtful,which is not my intention.

I doubt there is any "true" path to peace. But it should be everyone's goal.

I believe there is a true path to peace and yes it should be everyone's goal.

With all respect I disagree with that 100%.
If you check topic "Credendovidis : I believe it as soon as I see it" you will see that I explained there that believing (religion) is NOT a case of making a choice. Just as for you it seems impossible to believe anything else than you do, that also goes for non-believers. There simply is no choice : the religious belief option is no valid alternative to a non-theist. There is no choice, and it is no choice.

I believe there is a choice, by opening yourself to possibilities and thinking in terms not in just what is tangible,there is the possibility of opening to what we call faith.
Faith in the existence of unseen things in this universe,things we do not have tangible proof of.

You have already chosen not to believe,and that is your choice,but you cannot prove to me that my belief is wrong because you cannot prove that an Almighty does not exist,the same way I cannot show proof in the way you want to see proof of His existence.

I am sure there are theists who believe in supernatural things(not just the Almighty but other beings) too as there are those that do not believe in it.
I am sure you have heard of many who have grown up without any religious background yet chosen a religious path in their adulthood,or those who grow up with faith,find that they do no believe anymore that their path is the true one and search for the truth.

Humans always have a choice.

The difference is that I never try to convince others that I am "right"...

I don't do that either even if I believe I am right:D.

How wrong you are with that. Why would you be a fool to believe in religion? It is your right to believe whatever suits you best. You are not a fool to do so.
But neither is a non-believer a fool to believe whatever he/she believes or prefers.
As there is no "right" or "wrong" in that respect, the position by either believers and non-believers is equal. Qualifying non-believers "wrong" - as so many Christians do here on this board - THAT is wrong.
Unless of course someone can PROVE with objective support who is right.
But as that did not happen the last 20 thousand years, I do not expect anyone to stand up now and perform that trick ...

Well according to you,I believe in things that do not have factual references for humans to see proof of what I believe in.
I did not say all non-believers call me a fool but that they might think me a fool,because just like you they cannot fathom how it is possible that a human being with all their senses intact and with the knowledge we have available could believe in an Almighty Power unseen,unheard and yet be willing to live this life in His guidance.

You do know you are not the first nor will you be the last to ask for proof of the existence of the Almighty.There were many and there will always be many who ask the same questions.Some find their answers in the most unusual circumstances when they least expect it while others will never find an answer to their question until death.
When death reaches us we,you and I will know for sure whether what you believe is right or what I believe is right.
Until then, as I said before search and research and live your life with your own choices.

[0rphan]

Hello firmbeliever, just let me thank you for your kind thoughts regarding my dear Mum and Brother, it's comforting to know that there is someone out there who is thinking of me at this time in my life. Bless you for that.

Having read your post I think you are just giving your general thoughts on being helpful to are fellow man whether we are of any religion or of none. What you seem to be saying is that there is no judgement or should be no judgement on who ever we are in life be it a pauper or prince, are consideration for are fellow man should remain the same, and I agree with you.
Sadley I think in today's society many people are out for their own personal gain and could not give a jot for anyone else, it's a case of "i'm alright Jack" if you know what I mean, there are those who give very generously to various charities but make a point of letting everyone know that they have done so, it's the people who give quietly not necessarily money but as you say a kind word or a comforting hand a cup of tea and a chat just every day things but to an elderly lonely person it would mean the world and make their day.
IN my job I see such people daily sometimes it breaks my heart it's so obvious that they just want some company, the younger people that I work with have no patients and make all kinds of remarks not realizing that one day they also will be older,even sadder is that the parents who also come into where I work also laugh along with their chidrens remarks which says to me some of our societies problems stem from the home.
Having said all that you will get just the odd child who comes good at the last moment having a reputation for a thief etc... this lad about 13 was the only one who appoached me on the street one day after my dear Mum and my Brother died to say how very very sorry he was, well between the fighting back of tears I was totally amazed I thought under all of that nastyness there was really a lovely kid who had to be nasty in front of his mates and the gang, sadley he will probabley get into trouble with the law before to long just to save face with this gang it is such a shame .
The strange thing is all of the people that live in the area where I work have nothing- well legally anyway- but they would do anything to help you and give there last penny.

So to sum up really I think there are different levels of good and bad and indifferent throughout society whether you are religious or not, I think also there are many things that people believe in but wouldn't admitt it what ever the reason.

We are all originals changed by are society we live in.

Takecare

[Allheart]

Firm,

I love your post and the beautiful way you shared your faith. It was you heart speaking so beautifully.

It spoke of a beautiful faith and love for Our Father and a love for religious and non-religious ( I like those terms much better NK... great suggestion).

Firm, you offered your faith in such a loving way. It was so peaceful. Let no one turn it into anything other then that.

God, did say we will be persecuted for our beleifs.

My advice to you (not that you asked :):), is when it is apparent that ugly is coming at your beautiful words, and they are being torn apart, I would then smile and then turn away.

You've done your part in offering insight in to your beleifs - You don't have to debate or defend, otherwise, in doing that, we sometimes end up dancing with the wrong partner :)

If any of that makes sense.

Bless you and your heart for sharing.

[firmbeliever]

Thank you Orphan and Allheart.

[Credendovidis]

You have already chosen not to believe,and that is your choice ...

I disagree. I had no choice. The option to accept deity/deities was unacceptable to my world view. Your belief in God is just as strong as my dis-belief in God. A choice indicates a personal selection. That was not the case for me.
.

... but you cannot prove to me that my belief is wrong because you cannot prove that an Almighty does not exist,the same way I cannot show proof in the way you want to see proof of His existence

I NEVER EVER CLAIMED that your belief is wrong. From me you may believe whatever you want. It are the fundamental (Christians) who tell me that I am wrong.
Besides that : I do not have to prove anything here, as it is near-impossible to prove a negative claim. Specially in the light that those who believe in God (a positive claim - much easier to prove) can not even prove that one! The "default" is that something does not exist till it's existence is objective supported by evidence.
Example : we know 4 dimensions (height, width, length, time). Any other dimensions are metaphysical till objective supported evidence has been supplied for such a hypothesis. (A major problem for "string theory").
.

I am sure there are theists who believe in supernatural things(not just the Almighty but other beings) too as there are those that do not believe in it.

So? There are very few Atheists who believe in ghosts, fairies, leprechauns, witches, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, fortunetelling, or even in horoscopes. Most Atheists see no reason for "higher" powers of any kind to exist. Almost all believers in any of these are believers in religion.
.

I am sure you have heard of many who have grown up without any religious background yet chosen a religious path in their adulthood,or those who grow up with faith, find that they do no believe anymore that their path is the true one and search for the truth.

And there are those who grew up in a religious background, but rejected the religious path. However they do not search for any truth, as they realize that there is no such truth and/or see no reason for such truth.
.

I did not say all non-believers call me a fool but that they might think me a fool,because just like you they cannot fathom how it is possible that a human being with all their senses intact and with the knowledge we have available could believe in an Almighty Power unseen,unheard and yet be willing to live this life in His guidance.

Wrong! You really have it all wrong. What makes you think I can not fathom that? I just reject what you believe to be true. That is all. I am already married for 39 years to a Roman Catholic, whom I support in all ways I can. I have no problem at all that she leads in the weekly services in absence of the priest. I also supported her 2 year training that allowed her to do so. And I am a frequent volunteer for many various tasks (like projects that try to raise capital) and to repair or even replace technical facilities free of charge.
Still I do never attend to church services other than for marriage, funerals, etc.
I do not "hate" Christians. I just have a different world view.
.

You do know you are not the first nor will you be the last to ask for proof of the existence of the Almighty.

Wrong! And again you really have it all wrong. When I ask for proof of the existence of the Almighty etc. that is never in response to statements of personal belief, but in response to CLAIMS posted by believers, based entirely on their BELIEF, but stating that as "truth" or "factual". But what one believes is based on belief, and that can only be "truth" or "factual" when objective supporting evidence is supplied. And that never is. I ask for proof when claims are posted. Not when someone posts that he/she believes... this - that - whatever..
.

... When death reaches us we, you and I will know for sure whether what you believe is right or what I believe is right ...

Not really. When death reaches us, all brain activities stop, and we will no longer "know" anything. You may BELIEVE differently, but that does not prove that that is indeed so! That is one of these claims that you have to prove first... :D
;)

[firmbeliever]

Crede,
Why do you insist on asking for tangible proof of the belief in an Almighty be provided?Especially when you believe it is a false claim.

As I have already stated in another thread...
It is not possible for you to find a sample of the Almighty,something you can view under a microscope or dissolve in some chemical or record its chemical properties,no one can provide you with such a sample of the Almighty for you to do lab tests on.

And yes,it is belief and faith in an unseen,being,which I am sure is hard for you to understand because you do not believe or acknowledge the possibility of an Almighty existing.

This disbelief in an Almighty does not necessarily make your claims to be the truth,it is just a conclusion you have come to based on what you believe.And there is no way you can prove my beliefs to be false,because all the scientific testing cannot take us back to a time before the universe existed.There are only certain things that can be scientifically tested,like you said tangible things.
There is so much out there in the universe and on this earth that science is still researching leading to new findings.

For a believer like me,each scientific finding makes me firmer in belief,some of it shows me the wonders of each living creature,their communities,their habits and their environment.
Science brings to me findings of communities that have lived before us and how they demised.Scientific research explains to me the wonders of our planet and others,how intricately balanced the whole system is.
Science helps explain our own bodies and what happens when a tiny thing goes wrong in it,how to help it heal or how to make it healthier or weaker or stronger physically.

All of these to me is amazing,but I believe there is something of the human and other living creatures that science finds it hard to explain because there is no tangible evidence to do any research on.
For a believer like me,it isn't hard to believe without evidence because there is so much unseen,untouched by our scientific research and I do believe all things cannot be scientifically explained.

[Credendovidis]

Crede, why do you insist on asking for tangible proof of the belief in an Almighty be provided?

I don't ask that . At least not to prove the Christian religion as incorrect. I have nothing against Christianity. Actually most people that really know me realize that I am a very tolerant person towards religious preferences.

I pose my request to others to prove belief statements when people post what they BELIEVE as factual and/or "the one and only truth". Because without objective supporting evidence it is an empty and invalid claim.

Especially when you believe it is a false claim.

Who says that I believe that? So far the lack of any valid replies to my request for proof seems to indicate that these claims are fault. What I see as true is more based on lack of real support by believers for what they believe, than what I see myself as "true". When I say that for me belief in deities is an unacceptable option that is based on lack of belief in favor of that option. Not on some intended and willful disbelief.
.

This disbelief in an Almighty does not necessarily make your claims to be the truth.

I NEVER have claimed that this Almighty does not exist.
So why do you claim that to be my "disbelief"?
.

... it is just a conclusion you have come to based on what you believe.

I do not believe that, nor is that my conclusion. All I say is that so far nobody has ever been able to provide objective supporting evidence for it.
.

And there is no way you can prove my beliefs to be false...

I do not have to prove anything. Nor is it my intention to prove your beliefs to be false. Where do you get these ideas from? Please realize that the "default" here is not that a deity or deities exists. The default is that there is no objective supporting evidence for the existence of deities.
The one who disagrees with that has to provide the support for any other claims.
.

... because all the scientific testing cannot take us back to a time before the universe existed....

That is irrelevant. Nobody in his/her right mind asks to go back 14 odd Billion years.
All that I say is that people should not claim that what they BELIEVE to be factual and/or the "one and only truth".
And if they do that anyway I ask them to provide objective supporting evidence for their claims.
.
;)

[firmbeliever]

Crede,

I wonder if you keep asking your believing wife every other day to show proof of her beliefs;) I hope not.(just kidding)
I know you said you are tolerant of believers,but sometimes I do wonder why do you insist on repeating the same phrase " "truth" or "factual" when objective supporting evidence is supplied"-as you already know there is no objective supporting evidence which you will find to be true.
Nevermind,you dont need to answer that,I think I can guess(almost):) what you might say.

As for me,I am not here to prove you right or wrong,I am just putting forward my beliefs and you dont have to follow them if you do not believe.

I believe it to be true and that is enough for me,to have faith and to believe in what I believe and follow the guidance I believe in.

I do not claim to know everything but I do believe in what I follow to be truth which is enough proof for "me" to live my life according to such a guideline.
Personally for me I find peace,assurance,practical guidelines,a goal,and so much more in my beliefs.

[Credendovidis]

Crede, I wonder if you keep asking your believing wife every other day to show proof of her beliefs;)

No need to do that : she knows that what she believes is her world view and her "truth", but that that does not mean that it is an objectively supported reality, and/or the "one and only truth".
.

I know you said you are tolerant of believers,but sometimes I do wonder why do you insist on repeating the same phrase " "truth" or "factual" when objective supporting evidence is supplied"-as you already know there is no objective supporting evidence which you will find to be true. Nevermind,you dont need to answer that,I think I can guess(almost):) what you might say.

Well : to make sure, here is my answer to allow you to check if you were correct.
I ask for that evidence, because (and when) people CLAIM that what they BELIEVE is "truth" or "factual".
.
However I wonder about you line "... when objective supporting evidence is supplied... " : so far that evidence has NEVER been supplied, and therefore there is no support for these religious claims!
.
People should say "it is my personal belief that ..(whatever).. is true", or "I believe that ..(whatever).. is true". And NOT say "..(whatever).. is true" (without providing objective supporting evidence for that.
.

As for me, I am not here to prove you right or wrong,I am just putting forward my beliefs and you don't have to follow them if you do not believe.
I believe it to be true and that is enough for me, to have faith and to believe in what I believe and follow the guidance I believe in.

No problem with that! I do not question whatever you BELIEVE. I question unsupported religious claims.
.

I do not claim to know everything but I do believe in what I follow to be truth which is enough proof for "me" to live my life according to such a guideline.

Noted and agreed with that line of approach !
.

Personally for me I find peace,assurance,practical guidelines, a goal, and so much more in my beliefs.

My wife says the same, and I am glad for her that that seems to work for her.
Personally for me I also find peace, assurance, practical guidelines, a goal, and so much more in my Secular Humanist / Freethinking world view.
:rolleyes:

[Allheart]

Hi guys :)

Just thought I would pop my head in.

I think as far as proof in an earthly sense, meaning, we can see and touch, or add up or any way we currently obtain proof of things. ( Johnny made a pie, we saw him make it, and the result is the pie, the pie being proof as well)

That sort of "proof", in my opinion, for prooving that God exsist, will never happen. Religious beleifs is an entitiy all on it's own. It stands alone. There are separate subject matters, such as Politics, Cooking, Real Estate, these are topics that stand alone. As does Religion.

When it comes to religion, the only proof that may be able to be seen, is by someone who does believe, has the love of God in his or her heart, and there actions match what they believe.

I know that is a stretch, but as far as the topic religion, all it takes is faith.

This is hard to describe, but one you do have faith, a different definition of proof, enters into the equation. But it enters you heart, and perhaps your eyes, by some things that you couldn't see before, but it will never be something you can touch, perhaps only feel.

I can perhaps share what I mean by, once you have faith, you begin to see things differently:

At work, or really in any one on one relationship, if I am having a difficult moment with someone (mostly at work), and there is "static" between us, and I just can't find a way to ease it, I stop in my tracks and pray for that person, even if maybe the hurt my feelings, or where harsh, I pray for them, I pray for their happiness, and May God watch over them.

My hand to my heart, every time I remember to pray for someone, in a sitiuation like that,
within hours, and no longer then a day, almost immediately, I am greeted with a smile, and/or a much better communication with that person. Because, I am human, I don't always remember to do this, as I get caught up in the hurt feelings or upset.

God said, that it is all well and good to pray for those that we love and love us back, but we are more importantly are to pray for those, who may not want the best for us.

We don't always have "proof" that our parents love us, we can't always see it, but within our hearts, we know it to be truth. It something along those lines.

I don't know if any of my ramblings help :), I hope they do, but I offer them from the heart not trying to convince of anything, but just to share my view and beleifs.

I believe that once someone opens their heart to Our Loving Father, it allows the proof that some seek, to enter as well.

[Credendovidis]

When it comes to religion, the only proof that may be able to be seen, is by someone who does beleive, has the love of God in his or her heart, and there actions match what they beleive ... // ... once you do have faith, a different definition of proof, enters into the equation.

Hello Allheart!
Nobody should claim whatever he/she believes as "true" or "factual" unless that is preceded by "I BELIEVE THAT".

If anyone states that "I know that... " , or "it is... ", or "it is a fact that... " , it is no more than fair to ask that person to provide objective supporting evidence for that claim.

:rolleyes:

[Allheart]

Hello Allheart!
Nobody should claim whatever he/she believes as "true" or "factual" unless that is preceded by "I BELIEVE THAT".

If anyone states that "I know that ..." , or "it is ... ", or "it is a fact that ..." , it is no more than fair to ask that person to provide objective supporting evidence for that claim.

:rolleyes:

Hi Cred :)

I believe, it to be fact, you make a very good point ( like that? :)

In all seriousness, I do agree with your statement. It is rare if ever I use those terms, in any aspect of my life.

One I claim to know, or it is fact, I fear I may be closing the door on that topic from further learning. That is offered in a general sense.

[Credendovidis]

Hi Cred :)I beleive, it to be fact, you make a very good point ( like that? :)
In all seriousness, I do agree with your statement. It is rare if ever I use those terms, in any aspect of my life.
One I claim to know, or it is fact, I fear I may be closing the door on that topic from further learning. That is offered in a general sense.

I know that you (try to) formulate your posts and positions well. But you also will know that there are many who insist it is there religious freedom to make wild claims. There are even people on this board seriously posting topics like : "How can we prove the Bible is factual ". It is for that reason that I focus on these wild claims.
As to personal religious views, beliefs, and faith : I respect everyone's choice, and will never attack that. But just as people want to be free to chose the religion on their choice, there are also many who want to be free from religion. And on this board and on many other boards there is much to do still to ensure both sides keep that freedom of choice.
;)

[Allheart]

HI again Cred,

But I don't see the wild claims on this board. I think, especially with Firm, she is just stating what she believes (her name even suggest that )

I don't judge, or ever try to force my beliefs on anyone. Do I want everyone to feel what's in my heart, that the words just don't seem to match,. with all my heart... yes

But I love and embrace one and all ( when having a good day :).

[Fr_Chuck]

The issue is that in all areas things at times have to be taken with some faith, we are told that the earth is round, I guess it is, I have never been into space to see it for myself, I have to trust camera's and information that is provided to me. So I could say it is not and I won't accept it as a fact since I have not personally been proved. I could say that I don't believe there are planets outside of our solar system, I have never seen them, I understand that they claim their telescopes show them, but then I have to accept what they tell me as true, faith.

We accept as true 1000's of things everyday, but we accept things without question for to often from some sources.
The real situation is that all people have faith in unseen things from some sourse, it is where that persons heart lies that determines where that faith is put.

[Allheart]

The issue is that in all areas things at times have to be taken with some faith, we are told that the earth is round, I guess it is, I have never been into space to see it for myself, I have to trust camera's and information that is provided to me. So I could say it is not and I won't accept it as a fact since I have not personally been proved. I could say that I don't beleive there are planets outside of our solar system, I have never seen them, I understand that they claim thier telescopes show them, but then I have to accept what they tell me as true, faith.

We accept as true 1000's of things everyday, but we accept things without question for to often from some sources.
The real situation is that all people have faith in unseen things from some sourse, it is where that persons heart lies that determines where that faith is put.

So well said Fr. Chuck. So very well said.

For me, having great love and immense appreciation in my heart for God, it is then that I can see His works in earthly things.

I see it most times, in a special needs child. I know that may sound odd, but if you think back whenever you see a mentally challenged child, you see a big huge happy smile and they are delighted by every beautiful thing on earth. To me, I see God's loving hands watching over them.

There are so many more, but this is one that always striked me the most.

[firmbeliever]

how can you you call yourself a firm believer when you have not even read the quran

after reading the quran, and you call yourself a beleiver without even reading this?

my friend if you call yourself 'a true beleiver' then read the quran online in english, and if ALMIGHTY GOD opens up your chest to the truth, you will cry whilst reading the words of our CREATOR, any questions email me at [email protected]

Assalaam alaikum readnow,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
I am a practising muslima and I have read the Quran in Arabic and its translation many times.

Masha Allah,some verses in the Quran brings tears to my eyes too.
You might like to listen to the link in my signature,one of the best recitors I have heard.

Wa alaikum salaam

[firmbeliever]

I know this is under religious discussions but I want to make it clear I am not here to prove or disprove anything.I am just stating things I believe. I would like to hear if you have thoughts about it,but if you are into debating I want you to know that I am not into debating.
Ok,now that is out of the way... :)

As a believer in the Almighty...
I believe in the existence of many things which we cannot always sense and I use sense because I mean the 5 human senses.
Our eyes,ears,nose,tongue, and touch/feel are limited in that it can perceive things only within a certain range.
For example a dog or other animals can hear a frequency which the human ear cannot hear.The eyes of birds of prey can see things from a far distance that human eyes cannot see.
The same with smell,touch and taste,our senses are limited to a specific range.

The same way there are things we cannot see that exist around us,like the things that we can only see under a microscope or only when added to a certain substance or when we change its state from gas to liquid or solid.

From all this I believe there are things that human knowledge and the sciences humans invented cannot understand or explain.Some call it the paranormal.
I was thinking in the sense of the bigger picture of the universe with all its finer details we never know,the paranormal we call is normal actually.
Only in the sense of the human comprehension and understanding of normal does things like spirits and ghosts seem paranormal.

I am just saying that although we cannot comprehend that a being could exist other than in the 3D form we see the world in does not mean that there cannot be beings which we are unable to see or touch or sense.

The same way, believers believe in a world that everything is not explainable and believe that there are parts of this world and the universe that we may never know about.We believe that angels,spirits,ghosts,souls are part of the universe the Almighty created.
We believe because it is part of faith to believe that the Almighty is All knowing and we are not.

I hope no one will take offense because of the general way I have written,but I mean to include all believers who believe in the existence of the Almighty and the possible existence of things we cannot fathom with human limitations:)

[De Maria]

At least I do not believe in what someone else claims to be true, claims that always lack any objective support.

According to you. I don't think you would recognize objective support if it hit you in the face.

Why do you not react to the points I made in my previous post?

I'm getting to it. But first, the ridiculous nature of this next statement of yours caught my eye:

Look : for me nobody has to defend his-her religious views.

What a joke. That is precisely what you do in every discussion on this forum. You insist that everyone defend their religious views.

You know I am right, don´t you?

I know you are wrong.

But at least be honest when you claim something to be a fact, as I have never seen any religious claim or `one and only truth´ to be supported by objective evidence.

Because your subjective bias blinds you to objective truth.

All that support such claims is the personal BELIEF of the one who states the claim.
:rolleyes:

Again, you don't seem to know what belief means. You ascribe to that word a meaning which is very narrow, but let me show you AGAIN, what Webster says is the meaning of the word:

3: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
belief - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

So, essentially, you not only don't know what constitutes objective evidence. You don't know the meaning of the word to which you object.

So, here we go, your previous message:

WHY do you CLAIM that, and on WHAT do you base your CLAIM?

I claim the same thing based on my study of human behavior and Catholicism.
.

I know a lot of people who are motivated to do good WITHOUT any (further) stimulation, religious or not.

Are you sure? Have you asked them why they did what they did? If so, give an example of one who does good and is not motivated by anything, not pity, not a feeling of happiness, not a feeling of gratitude, no motivating factor at all.

Because I have yet to meet anyone who is not motivated by something to do anything at all. Even to turn on the TV. Most people turn on the TV for a reason. Therefore if you have met someone that does good but without any motivation for it at all, then I am very interested in this person.

But I agree with you that many people seem to need the stimulation by religious support to BE good (while almost always even religion fails to produce results).

I see that you claim to agree. But yet you feel the need to beat this person down with your analysis of his beliefs. In other words, he must defend his beliefs or justify them to you.

Actually I doubt if one needs religion to do good.

Well, you can probably use your subjective experience to answer this.

Apparently you eschew religion. Do you feel that you do good?

If "doing good" is not part of your standard lifestyle, religion won't help neither,

Won't help neither? Actually, I think it will. I know for a fact, that when I was atheist, I rarely helped any cause and anytime I did help any cause, I felt I needed to be paid somehow. At least I thought I should be thanked and that the people whom I helped needed to be appreciative.

However, now I pitch in when I'm asked or when I feel I'm needed and I do it simply because my faith in Christ says I should.

as at best any improved results will be based on wrong reasoning.

Really. Lets see your reasoning for this conclusion. I hope it isn't what follows?

A hard life is no valid reason for NOT being "good".

Oh my!! Did you arrive at this conclusion without religion?

I think then you'll have to provide objective proof of your stance, don't you? Why and what evidence do you have that a hard life is not a valid reason for not being "good"?

First explain what you mean by "being good".

Then tell me what constitutes a "hard life".

Then explain why a "hard life" does not justify not "being good"
.

This suggests that doing good is mainly a "means" based activity.

What suggests such? You have yet to say anything. You've suggested two fuzzy ideas which you haven't defined and now you've suggested another.

It all sounds really intelligent, but where's the beef?

I can guarantee you it is not. One can do a lot of "good" without any money or value involved. Think about the value of human and moral support, the will to assist where and when needed - like a friendly word and/or a helping hand, like youngsters showing some respect for the older in full busses and metro by offering them their seats, etc.

Are you now defining being good? And how do you define "a hard life"? What if a person has just hit you in the mouth? Does that constitute you're having a "hard day"? Will you then give him a friendly word? Or will you be justified in giving him a hit in the mouth?

How sad that you herewith admit that you - like the donkey and the carrot - need an incentive to be a good human being.

Sad? Is that a subjective opinion? Or it is objective, how do you support your conclusion?

As for me, I think it is humble and righteous to realize that we are not perfect but need assistance to reach for perfection.

So, please provide your objective evidence to support the conclusion that this individual's attitude is "sad".

With that I agree. But note that the believer seems to need religion to do good, while the non-believer does that automatically without any incentive.

I know a great many non-believers who don't do any good at all. In fact they do a great deal of evil. So, please provide the objective evidence that non-believers automatically do good.

Which of the two is the sincere one here, the one truly inspired?

Well you obviously have one particular non-believer in mind who never does anything that you believe is evil but only does good. I've yet to meet such a non-believer. So I think in your fantasy world, you have ascribed sincerity and inspiration to the non-believer.

However, since we are speaking subjectively, in the real world as I see it, it is usually non-believers who have an ill-formed conscience and therefore commit more evil than good. And when they do good, it is usually for what they can get out of it.

And believers, when they come to believe, learn to be humble and to accept their weaknesses. Therefore they respond by reaching to attain the greater Good who is God and who teaches us to love our neighbor and do good for them as we would like done for ourselves.

Why not peace here and now?

Because we recognize our limitations. But if you can produce peace in this world right now, please, by all means do so. Don't just talk about it. But you can't, so what's the point in berating this man about it?

Why that totally unnecessary shifting to "the hereafter"?

Because we believe in the hereafter and in eternity with God. Whereas you don't. So why are you concerned? It might be totally unnecessary to you, but it isn't to us.

People have been praying for peace for eons. Unless humanity makes it their lifestyle to really become peacefull in mind, all that praying is meaningless and will lead to nothing.

If all people would pray for peace, then they would become peaceful in mind.

What is needed is to strengthen the fineer thin layer of moral justification for our deeds, and put the responsibility of our actions there where it belongs : on our own shoulders.

Which is exactly what our faith teaches us.

What is needed also is that we stop being so greedy

Greedy. Now ther's a subjective concept. At what point is it greed? Owning a 10 bedroom house, a 3 bedroom house or a one bedroom house? Where do you draw the line? Should we have any possessions at all? Are you writing from your own computer?

- specially those in the western society - and share all available resources evenly over all of humanity, instead of what is happening now in a world dominated by greed and selfinterest above anything else.

How do you propose we get to this goal?

One does not need religion to be or become a "good human being". All we need is to learn to stop being so greedy and selfish.

Is that all? Isn't that what most religions are trying to achieve? And if you know a better way than through religion, why don't you provide it?

:rolleyes:

Exactly how I feel about this message of yours.

Sincerely,

De Maria