[jillianleab]

A heathen doesn't have to prove anything, we know the truth. I don't call that a self-righteous attitude, because what I tell others is not for my benefit, it's for theirs and those around them.

I didn't write the rules, I'm just saying if you read a holy book - you'll realize it's a farce.

I have the greatest respect for others, if I didn't I wouldn't be telling them about life as a heathen. The only reason I do this is because I care about the quality of their life.

I bet this puts me over the line?

I cross that line all the time, since it is my duty and job to let others know the joy they are missing by not being a heathen.

And from the testimony of 1000's that did know and later rejected Christ or god (or never accepted him in the first place), we know as a fact that people with him are missing things in their life. But in the end it is always the person's choice to accept or reject, but it is the duty and obligation of the heathen to give those who wonder the information so that you decide.

[Donna Mae]

If that's what you believe.
The word heathen is your word, never been mine.
But if that's what you're happy with. Hey, it's your life.

[Galveston1]

If I wave a red flag or lantern to keep someone from driving off a washed-out bridge, I am a hero. If I try to warn someone that he is headed toward Hell, I am an intolerant, ignorant bigot. Go figure!

[Donna Mae]

I don't understand it either.

[jillianleab]

My point is to hold up a mirror and see if you still think you don't sound self-righteous.

And the difference between saving someone from driving off a bridge and preaching about being saved by Jesus is that no one on this earth disputes that if a car plummets off a bridge the occupants will be killed or injured. There are more people on this earth who don't believe in the Christian version of heaven and hell than those who do.

Here's what I don't understand, and no one has ever given me an answer; Christians are supposed to preach their gospel and convert as many people as they can, I get that. But why do they insist on preaching it to people who aren't searching for god and/or Jesus? Do you really think a majority of non-Christians are so ill-informed about basic Christian beliefs that they don't know you think they are going to hell? Why not preach to the people who come to you or the people who admit they are lost or confused? That is why it's arrogant and self-righteous - you have the nerve to think that because someone doesn't believe the same way as you they are miserable, when in fact, a great deal of people are very satisfied with their current belief system. Do you like it when the zealots of the Muslim faith call us infidels and tell us if we don't convert we will all go to hell? Seriously, before you speak, think about what you are about to say from the other perspective - would you want someone telling you your beliefs are wrong, that you will suffer for eternity, etc unless you listen to them and accept their version of things? And when/if those things are said to you, will it shake your faith, even the slightest?

It's called empathy, try it out.

And you can call me a heathen, it doesn't bother me. I do it all the time.

[ScottGem]

Here's what I don't understand, and no one has ever given me an answer; Christians are supposed to preach their gospel and convert as many people as they can, I get that. But why do they insist on preaching it to people who aren't searching for god and/or Jesus?

You said it better than I did.

But to answer your question, there are passages in the New Testament that specifically push Christians to convert others. As Chuck said, they consider their job and duty. Its unfortunate, because those passages have led to a lot more harm than good. The problem is blind faith, as I see it. Proselytizers take a view of the bible that they have to follow it exactly. So they would be remiss in their devotion to God is they didn't proselytize. Obviously not all Christians feel this way. Many take a more pragmatic view and feel they shouldn't force themselves on others.

I've mentioned before that I attended a synagogue in Greenwich Village in NYC when I was growing up. This synagogue was called the Brotherhood synagogue and shared its building with a church (Episcopalian as I recall). There is a church on LI that recently celbrated its 275th annversary. The church is shared by Christian, Jewish AND Moslem congregations. So I have to ask, since there are congregations that PRACTICE brotherhood, why do some people insist on imposing themselves on others.

[Allheart]

I think, possibly, I can help both of you out. Possibly. First, if a religion is made on a foundation to "recruit" more "flock", this would not be a religion I would wish to be a part of. Not saying it is wrong, just not for me.

Now, here is how I see it. So many times, I heard people who have just had enough of having someone else's view, thoughts, or faith jammed down their throats, say, "It's behavaviour like that, that reconfirms my belief in not to believe in God."

And who could blame them?

It is Allheart's belief, that these "do gooders", these folks so worried about your spiritual soul, that they are willing to hurt and rip apart your human soul" in the name of saving your soul (puke), is evil at it's finest.

It may be evil preventing some, not all, but some, from opening up maybe a little more to the possibility that God does exsist.

As a human, it truly makes me so mad. But never afraid of evil. I think evil (unkind acts) penetrates, which was once, and still is, a very good person, but evil, like a cancer, has attacked them.

Believe me, not all who believe in God, or accept Jesus as their Savor, would make any of you feel anything but loved.

We ALL our children of God - Not one of us is better then the next.

I will tune out those that say I am sugar coating the issue. Let God be the judge of that.

And may we all be concerned, with doing good, loving and helping each other through every day.

God will take it from there.

Now this is only my view, but maybe gives you some insight.

Remember, a couple of bad apples, were once apples themselves but will never ever spoil the whole bunch.

My heart to all of you.

Allheart

[Ramamoorthy]

The question of "believing comes" when we are not sure of the existtance of thing.The ecstacy of a dive in a swimming pool can never be enjoyed unless one jumps into it. No point in always jumping on the springing board. One must dive into the pool to enjoy the freshness. There is no other way out.

[jillianleab]

Allheart, you truly are one of the good apples! :) You are someone who, in my experiences with you here has always been kind, patient and understanding to those of different faiths. I wish I could say the same about more people on this site (and that goes for people of all and no faith!). And this bears repeating - if I could give you a greenie, I would!

It is Allheart's belief, that these "do gooders", these folks so worried about your spiritual soul, that they are willing to hurt and rip apart your human soul" in the name of saving your soul (puke), is evil at it's finest.

It may be evil preventing some, not all, but some, from opening up maybe a little more to the possibility that God does exsist.

And Scott, I'm aware it is a Christian's duty to spread the word, but I just don't get why they must spread it to people who are already happy and secure in their beliefs. Why not start by spreading the word to those who are unhappy, confused, or lost, and then tackle the task of world domination? :D That is what I don't get - why focus on me (or someone like me), someone who is happy with every aspect of their life (well... I sort of wish I had a new car... ) instead of focusing on someone who feels like they are missing something? I just don't get it.

Doesn't Dr. Phil always say you can't help people who don't want help? So isn't it a waste of time to try and help someone who doesn't want it?

And Ramamoorthy, your analogy works coming from both sides. Perhaps jumping out of religion is the ecstacy?

[Donna Mae]

[QUOTE=jillianleab]
Here's what I don't understand, and no one has ever given me an answer; Christians are supposed to preach their gospel and convert as many people as they can, I get that. But why do they insist on preaching it to people who aren't searching for god and/or Jesus? Why not preach to the people who come to you or the people who admit they are lost or confused? ]

You asked why do we insist on preaching to people who aren't searching? I think I've said before that my statements are directed at someone searching for Christ. I am not picking you out to tell you about Christ, but it seems that you are the one who takes offense at 'everything' I say, no matter who I'm answering.

When questions are asked, I'm thinking they are actually being asked by someone who wants an answer, but possibly these questions are just being asked by someone who just wants to cause conflict. So unless you are asking the questions, my answers are not directed at you, at least not until you respond to answers that I have directed to someone else.

Doesn't sound fair that Christians answers are attacked and blame is put on us because we had the nerve to answer them.

You seem to be very angry at Christians, could it be that maybe you're not sure that what we are saying isn't true?

I have noticed that the only Christians you seem to agree with are the ones who walk that fine line of staying on the good side of non-believers. Sorry, but I'm not going to try to pacify everyone, no Christian can. God said "if you are not for me, you are against me,"
And, "if you are ashamed of Me, I will be ashamed of you." This is something that all Christians need to remember. We are to please God, not man.

And I am definitely not ashamed of my Heavenly Father, and His Son, my Savior!

[NeedKarma]

God said "if you are not for me, you are against me,"

When did he say that?

[talaniman]

God said "if you are not for me, you are against me,"

God never said that, some ancient man said it, to scare the bejesus out of you, and make you stay in line.

[Donna Mae]

When did he say that?

Mark 9:38 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, "for whoever is not against us is for us."

Sorry, I got it switched.

Matthew 10:32-33
"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven."

Mark 8:38
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."

[jillianleab]

You asked why do we insist on preaching to people who aren't searching? I think I've said before that my statements are directed at someone searching for Christ. I am not picking you out to tell you about Christ, but it seems that you are the one who takes offense at 'everything' I say, no matter who I'm answering.

I was talking about the collective "you" not you specifically. And I'd love for you to point out where I have taken offence to anything you said, short of when you likened atheists to Nazis (which you admitted was wrong to do).

Doesn't sound fair that Christians answers are attacked and blame is put on us because we had the nerve to answer them.

And what "attack" are you referring to?

You seem to be very angry at Christians, could it be that maybe you're not sure that what we are saying isn't true?

You seem to be very angry at atheists, could it be your faith is not as strong as you think it is? Please, Donna I'm not an angry person, and I'm certainly not angry at Christians. What gives you the impression I'm angry at Christians - the fact that I don't agree with you? The fact that I flip your arguments around so maybe, just maybe you'll gain a little bit of empathy?

I have noticed that the only Christians you seem to agree with are the ones who walk that fine line of staying on the good side of non-believers. Sorry, but I'm not going to try to pacify everyone, no Christian can. God said "if you are not for me, you are against me,"
And, "if you are ashamed of Me, I will be ashamed of you." This is something that all Christians need to remember. We are to please God, not man.

Golly, that sure sounds like you're judging me... And why are you holding it against me that I agree with or respond well to people who are polite and respectful? You know, the ones who wouldn't dream of saying atheists are like Nazis? I've never asked to be pacified, and I've never asked that you change your core beliefs. I've asked for basic respect, tolerance and politeness - things everyone, regardless of their faith deserves.

And I am definitely not ashamed of my Heavenly Father, and His Son, my Savior!

Nor should you be. Nor have I demanded you be. But you can be proud of your savior and still be respectful of others.

Donna, if you don't like what I or other non-Christians have to say on this site, please, do us all a favor and add us to your "ignore" list.

[Donna Mae]

Well, I don't know? Why would I think you are angry at Christians?
I agree. The ignore list sounds like a good idea for both of us.

[Fr_Chuck]

Actually it is from the bible, words of Chriist, those that are not with me are against me ( I don't have the chapter or verse as I write, but it is there) And it was written to set the boundary lines, that there is no other way, that unless one is a Christian, they are not saved and not part of the fellowship.
In the very early church there were parts of the service that a non christian was not allowed to even be at, since they viewed it as a Christian activity.

[ScottGem]

I agree with what jillian said. No one is suggesting you should be ashamed of your beliefs. Just the opposite. But you are asking that we be ashamed of ours. And that shows a disrespect for others that I can't stomach.

[jillianleab]

Chuck, I have a question about that verse, and you are very knowledgeable about the bible, so I think you should be able to help me.

Is the intent of "not with me you are against me" that, "those who are not Christian will not be saved by me" or that "those who are not Christian are my enemies/hate me"? I ask this because your post seems to indicate the former, but I have read many people's posts on this site which seem to imply the latter. Or is this something that is subject to man's interpretation?

I'm not trying to bait you, I really am curious about that. Obviously the different interpretations have very different meanings. If anyone else knows or has a comment, feel free to add your remarks. I don't want to get too far off topic, but I'd like to know.

[Allheart]

Hi Jill and all: (Fr. Chuck - Miss your eye but like the new one too)

Had to look this up myself as we did not have bible study in Catholic church, but I most defintely heard the verse. It can be found in Luke 11:23

And it seems pretty easy to understand. Just like in life, either you enjoy someone's company and have them for dinner or you don't. No middle - no sitting on the fence.

It means to me that either you believe and accept Jesus in you hearts, or you don't.

Hope this helps:

Gathering with Jesus (11:23)
"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters." (11:23)
In this context of spiritual conflict between demonic powers and Jesus' kingdom power there can be no neutrality.

We live in a world where agnosticism is sometimes considered a respectable alternative between faith in Christ and atheism. It is in the middle. It is neutral. It doesn't say I don't believe. It doesn't say I do believe. It says, I don't know.

But Jesus makes it clear that when mighty forces are arrayed against each other, individuals must take sides or they'll be crushed in the battle. The strong man, the prince of demons has taken a stand against the Anointed One and the angelic armies of heaven. The war has been won; the enemy has been dealt a decisive blow at Calvary. But there is an ongoing battle with frequent skirmishes, and it is fatal to be caught in No Man's Land. The final battle is to come: Armageddon (Revelation 16:16; 20:7-10).

Jesus' words in 11:23 pose a two-fold question:

Are you with Jesus?
Are you gathering with him?
You cannot straddle the fence. You are either with Jesus fully, or you oppose him and effectively scatter the harvest that he is trying to gather.

[ScottGem]

Jesus' words in 11:23 pose a two-fold question:

Are you with Jesus?
Are you gathering with him?
You cannot straddle the fence. You are either with Jesus fully, or you oppose him and effectively scatter the harvest that he is trying to gather.

Perfect! This goes back to something I and others said earlier. I believe that one can be "with" Jesus and "gather" with him without believing in him. The great thing about Jesus was his teaching of peace and love and the Golden Rule. This as all come to be known as the Judeo-Christian ethic. I believe that if one follows this ethic and lives by it, it doesn't matter whether they worship Jesus, Allah, Jehovah, Buddha or Bruce! If and when "Judgement Day" comes, I believe people will be judged on how they treated other PEOPLE not how they worshipped.

I take Luke 11:23 to mean that if you follow the teachings about morality and ethics than you are on the side of Jesus at least as far as Judgement Day is concerned.