[Tempic]

Can I substitute turning the breakers off for removing the fuses?

Upon closer inspection I see there are 4 sets of wires, 2 red and 2 black. Does it matter which red/black to test? Should I test all the combinations?

[massplumber2008]

Tempic... you should have 2 sets of wires into water heater junction box.. and a ground wire connecting onto heater by a screw. You should only need to disconnect two wire nuts... then test each pair as they were under the caps.. do not disconnect or touch anything... just pull/twist off caps and then set leads on and test as we instructed.

[Tempic]

I tested the wires at the junction box. You say I only needed to test 2, but I don't know which two of the 4 to test, so I tested them all.

Testing black probe to black wire and red probe to red wire I got 0 for all combinations. Just as a sanity check I tested ground and wires and got 120.

[Tempic]

BTW - as far as the sequence, here is the layout:


Outside: Time of Day Meter
Inside: Breaker box, junction box, top of heater, thermostats/elements

What we know so far as I understand it:
At the breaker box we are getting 120v (ground/screw)

At the junction box we are getting 0 (wire/wire) 120v (ground/wire)

At the elements we are getting 120 (ground/screw), 0 (screw/screw)

[massplumber2008]

I said you needed to remove two electrical nuts (caps) and test the wires under the nuts without disturbing the connection (the wires should be twisted together under these caps... do not disturb) what do you get?

[donf]

Hey are we all online together?

The reason Massplumber is having set the meter at 600 VAC is to prevent the meter from frying on you.

For example, if you are checking for 120 VAC and the meter is set for a max of 50 VAC, but you hit a 240 VAC line, kiss the meter goodbye.

Always start a couple of clicks above the voltage you are looking for. Once you determine that there is voltage on the line then you can drop the meter level down until it is easiest for you to read.

Okay, Lets start at the "Line In" voltage. Is it two wire (Black / Red) or three wire (Black - Red - White)?

For all we know, neither of the boxes on the side are no longer needed.
Find the primary supply wire. It most likely will be inside conduit and be a "Home Run" back to the SEP. (Service Entry Panel or main panel)

Before you do anything else, find the breaker labeled water heater and turn it off. If you remove the top cover on the panel box be extremley careful. Visually inspect the two breakers that supply power to your water heater.

Once you have the two beakers, I want you to ground the black meter probe on the metal of the panel case. Then put the red probe onto the top of the screw that secures the black wire to the breaker. Now, turn the panel back on, followed by the heater breaker. What voltage do you get? Now move the red probe to the second breaker (red wire ) and tell me what voltage do you get. Last panel test, Touch the rd probe to the red wire and the black probe to the black wire, what voltage do you get.

[massplumber2008]

Donf at post #17, tempic stated that sequence of electric is as follows:

Outside is a TIME OF DAY METER
Then inside is the FUSE subpanel
Then junction box,
Then water heater junction area
Thermostats
Elements... good luck. Thanks for help.

[donf]

Please,

Understand, I'm trying to verify that the source voltage is correct. So please do not disconnect any thing just yet.

The four wires are paired as a black / red. One side should be hot and the side of the pair should be zero, if you do not disconnect anything. Lets use one diagnostic path for the time being.

Have you gotten the make, model and s/n of the tank yet? Or faxed me the electrical section pages yet?

[massplumber2008]

Don and Tempic.. I have to go.. will follow with great interest though.. good luck.

[Tempic]

Don - I have not disconnected anything (unless taking the wire nuts off at the junction box is considered disconnecting)

This is a Kenmore 153.320892 HT 80 gallon, SN: A02228748

What pages do you want - the specs? The wiring diagram? I could also take pictures of the junction box and heater wiring if that would help. Would this process be easier if I just called you on the phone? I'd be happy to do that if you are willing to talk!

[donf]

Tempic,

It's a little to soon to chit chat. Let me see if I can find what I need on the web. Pictures would be great, especially of all boxes and wires adjacent to the water tank.

Here's my e-mail so you don't have to do battle with small images.

[email protected]. You don't happen to be in the Norfolk, Va. Beach, Chesapeake area of the world?

[Tempic]

Tempic,

It's a little to soon to chit chat. Let me see if I can find what I need on the web. Pictures would be great, especially of all boxes and wires adjacent to the water tank.

I'm in Michigan. Here is an updated picture of the breaker box and one of the junction box with the wire nuts off

[donf]

Tiempic,

Who has been screwing with the fused junction box!

Orig photo showed the black wires separated by two blank fuse holders. Your latest has the bottom right black wire removed and left on the bottom of the panel box, with the red lead from the bottom right terminal panel removed and cross connected to the bottom right terminal of the block.

Are you looking for a way to get bit by the electrical snake! First, if you ever remove a wire nut, cover the bare end with tape, And never cross colors without knowing what you are doing. What that does could put 240 VAC across a 120 VAC Breaker. Bad Idea! Please change that back to its original condition, and please don't get yourself bit while doing it.

Why do you want this tank on a "TOD"meter? A "TOD" meter cuts power to the tank during specific times during the day. If the meter tells you tank to stop heating, then there is nothing you can do until the meter let's go of the tank.

Blocking this out says that you have an outdoor SEP. The Utility Meter connects to your SEP. A breaker from the SEP connects to the TOD meter which then connects to the overhead junction box which then connects through the Shielded wires to the water heater.

There are at least two failure points your tank has. One the TOD meter. You cold be doing all this testing for no reason if the TOD meter has cut the power to your tank. Next, the feeder circuit to the TOD meter is blown,

Does the TOD meter belong to the home or the Power Company?

I'm going to drop out for a few minutes and see if I can pull up the docs on the web and find out some more info on the TOD meter.

Don

[Tempic]

Don,

I explained why the breaker box wiring was changed in an earlier post. A neighbor who is an electrician determined that the left side of the right breaker was not working, and that the left breaker was no even being used. So he moved the red wire over.

The TOD meter was here when we bought the house. I suppose the reason people get them is that you get a better rate since they can turn it off? Not sure. By the way - there is no meter between the breaker box and the junction. Outside the house there are two meters - the one for the rest of the house, and the TOD meter. From there the wire goes into the breaker box, then to the junction box which is right over the heater, then down to the heater.

If they turn it off, would any juice be flowing through to the elements? If the meter shows 120 (ground/screw) but shows 0 (screw/screw) what does that mean? And the last test on the wires shows basically the same: 0 (wire/wire) 120 (ground/wire).

I placed a service call with the electric company to come take a look at the meter since we are heading into the weekend. So I should know in the next couple hours if the meter is good or not.

[donf]

Okay,

First I had the implementation of the TOD meter. As it is defined in one of my manuals, the TOD meter is more of gagdet used by the utitilies to set varying rates by the different time of day.

Off to check the manual out.

Sorry your not located a tad closer, I was going to drop over for coffee.

[donf]

Your friend did not do you a favor especially since he just let a bare conductor sit on top of a bare metal box.

Would you please set the wires and fuses back where they originally were.

Have you had a chance to check the main panel for the water heater breakers?

[donf]

Geese,

The Kenmore site has no record of the "153.320892 HT 60 Gallon" tank.

Is there a model Name rather than a number for the tank. I haven't run into so many obstructions, twists, turns and flat stone walls since I was a rookie.

Electrically speaking, there should only be one supply source of 240 VAC, going into the tanks top. At the top of the tank, you should connect to the blacks and reds using wire nuts. In theory, this would only require one Black pigtail. (Feeder Black, upper element Black and lower element Black) On the red side again one pigtail (Feeder Red, Upper element Red and lower element Red). That's it.

Each element uses a 240 VAC. Black supplies 120 and Red supplies the other 120 VAC. Why are there external boxes? Why are they not configured properly?

Please fax or e-mail me with info on anything the manual has to say about electrical for this tank.

Obviously you are losing power to one side of the element, but which one and why? I'm hooked now!

[donf]

Were you the one to remove the fuses from the black block of the fuse panel?

I was studying the differences fuse panel picture. If you place the Red probe on one of the lower red leads and the Black probe on either a bare ground wire do you get 120 VAC?

Next make the same test on the Black side, Two of the four wires attached to the block should be hot. Which 2?

Maybe a previous owner intentionally removed the fuses believing he was conserving energy? It's dumb, but it might be that simple.

[Tempic]

BINGO!!

The utility company guy stopped by. The remote control box for the TOD meter was faulty and only 120v was coming into the house.

But he also said the way my neighbor rewired is no good - needs to be put back the way it was.

[massplumber2008]

I was wondering about the TOD meter as well guys... but had so much trouble getting any readings I understood... I could not advise best!

Glad you are all set Tempic... and Don... Thank you for following through. Take care all.