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Enochian · Feb 22, 2008, 08:40 PM

I do not know much about plumbing. I live in the USA. I have a 60 gallon gas water heater. My problem started maybe a month or two ago. In the bathroom sink of my home's second story the cold water in the sink will run very warm (almost hot) for the first 30 seconds. After that it goes back to cold water. All of my other stuff (shower, downstairs bathroom, kitchen sink) seems to be working fine - nothing abnormal. It is only that one sink in the upstairs bathroom. I have not changed anything before this problem started and I have not yet called a local plumber about the problem. Can anyone give me some advice or help?

speedball1 · Feb 23, 2008, 05:08 AM

What temperature is the water heater set at?

Enochian · Feb 23, 2008, 11:18 AM

I do not know the exact temp in degrees. My water heater has a temperature control setting that looks something like this: (HOT) (A) (B) (C) (VERY HOT). The water heating temperature is currently set to the letting 'B' or the middle of the setting. I have not changed that setting since I lived here for 5 years.

I told my wife that I posted about this problem on the forum to see if anyone could help before calling a plumber. She was reading through the forum and thought she picked out another problem we have with that bathroom.

She said that after the toilet in that same bathroom fills up that the pipes make a small vibrating sound. I never noticed before for some reason. But after she said that I did listen and it does sound like there is a small vibrating noise just after the toilet refills from being flushed. It is not a bad sound like some people on this forum seem to be experiencing. I thought that I would bring it up since it is the same bathroom. It is also a problem that just started happening recently and I didn't know if the problem was connected to the sinks problem or completely unrelated.

speedball1 · Feb 23, 2008, 12:36 PM

You heater temp sounds like about 120 F. Just taking a guess I would say that the cold water heats up by by convection. This would have some cold water in the pipe heating up until you made a draw. This brings more cold water up into the pipe and it cools down. That's what I thin is happening. What I can't tell you is where it's happening at. You'll just have to feel back along the pipe to find out.
As to the vibration in your toilets ballcock. That sounds like a washer that's loose or a small pebble has got in your supply line. If your ballcock looks like this,(see image) shut the water off to the tank and remove the three screws from the top and lift the float ball and stem assembly up and out. Turn the washer and seat it down firmly. Now place a can over the open ballcock and turn the water on for a minute to flush out the supply. Reassemble and give it a test flush. Better now? Regards, Tom

hkstroud · Feb 23, 2008, 01:42 PM

How far away from the water heater is the bath. What kind of valve do you have on the sink, single lever or two knob? Do you have any kind or recirculation line or pump on the hot water line? You stated that this started about a month ago. Has any changes made to you plumbing recently? Are you experiencing this phanomia on any other faucet? How long between uses of the faucet do you have to wait for this to happen?

Enochian · Feb 23, 2008, 02:37 PM

speedball1

Okay. I did a couple of things and I found out something new.

First, I tried a method that I read on these forums. I shut off the main water valve to the house. I turned on all the facets and let the water run out. When the water was out I went back to the main valve and slowly turned it back on. Then I went around to the facets and shut them off. That did not help with the toilet noise.

Second, I tried what you said and I undid the ballcock from the toilet, made sure the washers were secure, put the ballcock back onto the toilet and tried it out. This did seem to help. I do not hear the noise anymore. I am thinking about going to buying some replacement parts for the back of the toilet. Everything looked okay but it is all cheap looking plastic. I don't know if that has something to do with the problem or not.

Now, what I found out was a bit odd. When I was putting the ballcock back onto the toilet and letting the toilet refill with water I got burned by the water. Hot water is also flowing into that toilet for a few seconds. Like the bathroom sink, which is about two feet away from the toilet, hot water will come out for a few seconds and then go back to cold water. Even after the toilet has sat quiet for a minute I can reach behind the toilet and grab the water line that runs into the toilet and it feels hot to the touch. Flush the toilet and it gets cold again – few minutes later it is hot. Not sure if this has something to do with why the toilet started making vibrations sounds around the same time or not.

I read the section you wrote about the water heating up but I'm sorry, I am such a noob at this plumbing stuff that none of that paragraph made much sense to me.

EDIT: Finding the problem with the toilet made me curious so I tested out the shower in that bathroom. It is also running very warm to hot water for the first few seconds. I never noticed before because I always turned the hot water on first in the shower. But if I go to the shower and turn on the cold water I get hot water for about 10 to 15 seconds before it runs cold. The shower facet is only 1 knob.

So... basically the problem is entirely in that upstairs bathroom - Sink, Toilet and Shower. I did go around and double check the rest of the facets in the house and they are okay. It is only this one upstairs bathroom having problems.

hkstroud

The problem area is two floors away from the water heater. My water heater is in the basement and the bathroom sink and toilet are on the second story of my house. No plumbing as been changed. Last thing that was changed was a downstairs toilet and it wasn't really changed. It was just disconnected so that we could put new flooring around it. That was 1 year ago.

The facet itself is a two handle facet – one hot and one cold. It is not new and has been in the house since we bought it.

If it can help I can take photographs of anything and post them. I just do not know what will help.

hkstroud · Feb 23, 2008, 03:08 PM

You updated information excludes what I was thinking execpt for one thing, that is the recirculation line. Do you have a recirculation line? You don't have any looking funny devices in the cabinet under the sink do you. Do you have a little motor on the cold water line going to the water heater?

Enochian · Feb 23, 2008, 03:33 PM

I do not have anything in the cabinet under my sink. The water lines feeding the sink run from the facet connections into the wall. There is also no motors around the water heater.

hkstroud · Feb 23, 2008, 03:55 PM

Do you have any single lever faucets. For hot water to be getting into the cold water lines, you have to have a cross connection some where. If you have no recirculation line and no changes to the plumging have been made where an error could have occurred it, must be coming through a single lever valve some where.

I made an assumption here which one should never do. Because you said no motor around water heater I said no recir line. Motor could be some where else. You said you could post pics. Please show pic of pipes to water heater. This sure sounds like recirulation line problem. Too fast for valve crossflow.

Enochian · Feb 23, 2008, 05:14 PM

In that bathroom the shower facet is 1 handle. The sink is two separate handles for hot and cold running water.

Here are some photos of my water heater.

http://www.zerotime.com/waterheater01.jpg

http://www.zerotime.com/waterheater02.jpg

hkstroud · Feb 23, 2008, 05:22 PM

Can you show me the pipes coming to the heater? What I am looking for is check valves in the pipe that might indicate a recirculation line.

Your shower valve, is it the type that you pull on and turn to set temperature, or is it the type that you simply turn to both turn it on and set the temperature.

Enochian · Feb 23, 2008, 06:09 PM

I do not have to pull my shower facet out. It is a large dial. When it is in the 12 o'clock position the shower water is turned OFF. When you turn the dial counter-clockwise it turns the water ON - cold water first and the more the dial is turned counter-clockwise the warmer the water becomes until it gets hot.

Here are some pictures of my pipes leading from the water heater. I cannot see anything that doesn't look like a standard copper pipe.

http://www.zerotime.com/pipes01.jpg
http://www.zerotime.com/pipes02.jpg
http://www.zerotime.com/pipes03.jpg
http://www.zerotime.com/pipes04.jpg
http://www.zerotime.com/pipes05.jpg

I can take more pictures if I need to. I'm not sure exactly what to photo. Lol. I will be out the rest of the night however. I will check back late tonight or tomorrow afternoon.

Thank you!

hkstroud · Feb 23, 2008, 07:10 PM

Well I see nothing that would indicate a recirculation line. That seems to leave only single lever faucets as the only way for hot water to get in the cold water line. Tom seems to think that it could be residual heat coming up th cold water pipe but I think you bath is too far away for that. When you feel warmth on the toilet go down and feel the cold water line to the heater about a foot or so above the valve.

What I think is happening is that the shower valve is defective and that hot water is being allowed to pass to the cold water line when cold water is used some where, thus reducing the pressure on the cold water line slightly.

If you shower valve has integral stops we can turn them off and see if that is what is happening. If not you will probably have to replace the cartridge and hope.

Enochian · Feb 24, 2008, 11:11 AM

I checked the water heater and basement pipes when the cold water felt hot upstairs, (sink toilet, shower). I have two pipes leading out of the top of my water heater as shown in the picture. One pipe feels hot to the touch and one pipe feels ice cold to the touch - even a few feet above the water heater the temperature of each pipe does not seem to change. I ran my hand along the pipes and never felt any major temperature change in either. Is that normal?

http://www.zerotime.com/pipes01.jpg
Pipe with blue handle is the cold pipe. The pipe directly on the other side feels hot.

I can take the upstairs shower facet apart and look at it sometime. If it is broken how will I be able to tell? Will I be able to tell without switching it with another one?

If I cannot fix this problem for a week or two will this cause any other major problems if let go for that time? It has already been doing this for at least 1 month and maybe 2.

hkstroud · Feb 24, 2008, 11:40 AM

No, this should not cause other problems. Some type of shower valves have places in them that you can turn off the water so that you can replace the valves. This type is most often found in apartments and other multi-family residents. This enables service without turning off the water to the building. Some times these are found in single residence. Most often they are not. I you have this type you could just close them and see if that make the hot water to the toilet stop. We would then know that the valve is allowing hot water to cross over into the cold side. If your shower valve doesn't have this type of stop, you will just have to replace the cartridge. That is not particularly difficult or expensive.